Well, part of our mission statement says, “[to] work diligently toward the establishment of a thriving Theravada bhikkhuni sangha in the U.S. and abroad.” So, we generally only support bhikkhunis. We will, however, support samaneris who are seeking higher ordination. For instance, we sometimes pay travel expenses so that a novice can attend her higher ordination.
True, but not all 8/10 precept nuns are seeking bhikkhuni ordination. I think it is also, unfortunately, a matter of breadth. We don’t have the money and resources to support 8/10 precept nuns - it is difficult enough to fulfill our mission to the bhikkhuni sangha. I think, ideally, the goal would be to support all nuns everywhere, but at least right now, that’s not feasible.
Likewise, entirely true. Just as a moment of abstract (rather than practical) thought, it could well be considered in broader community terms rather than at the level of individual practitioners; basically if you have more people heading in that direction, the chances of inspiring and giving confidence to yet others who may go on to full ordination are raised. But as I say, it’s neither here nor there in immediate, practical terms.
Well, yes, of course, limits are limits. Still, there is support and support . I’m sure the AfB still has a lot to offer to all nuns (and in turn everyone else) in terms of, knowledge, connections and so on. I guess an aliance of aliances should be forged.
I should think that having some time to discuss your practice with an elder bhikku or bhikkhuni in your tradition (or other tradition for that matter), every 2-4 weekly, like we do with our trainee junior doctors, would be rather helpful. I recall Ven Anurudha would be silent for a week and then meet to discuss the dhamma one a week. This link would serve as a sort of ‘lifeline’ and possibly mentoring. It can be very isolating and this is not very helpful generally. Someone said even the Buddha did not isolate himself in the junlge for more than two weeks at stretch. If there is clinical depression, contact with people should be more often and busier the better! Therapy is very much along the lines of Dhamma so they are evidence based to reduce depression too, especially Cognitive Behavioral Therapy which sometimes even uses mindfulness. Even the Buddha went to the doctor, so medication can also be very beneficial- sometimes when our defilements overpower us getting a helping hand is appropriate! Sometimes mental health issues can manifest as behavioral issues- they may need therapy or at the very least good boundaries and moral guidance too. I think the general environment is conducive to these things fading with time as well.
I think maybe directory of nuns might be in order- to link into the AfB’s resources. AfB should look into better organizing themselves to support individual nuns on the ground wherever they are. They are precious and must be protected and given the space and support to flourish! I’m quite certain things will improve for them, as the dispensation grows. I wonder if the monks are equally well supported? We musn’t forget them! Maybe we will learn how best to look after monastics, from all this.
True, though we are not often contacted by 8/10 precept nuns . Haha, an Alliance of Alliances would be great! Or we could create a Facebook for Nuns: Nunbook. But really, though, it would be great to find ways of connecting nuns to one another.
@brenna, wasn’t there a directory project at AfB 2 or 3 years ago? I remember briefly volunteering to collate a few existing lists as a baseline. Or is @mat asking for something even more comprehensive?
I am not sure of the rules etc and cannot offer much more than food, lodging and some transport as I am caring for my parents and am not working anymore but I am more than willing to offer that to any Nun’s that may need accommodation, although I am not sure if a Nun is allowed to stay in the house of a male layperson. Having said that if there are any Nuns who need somewhere to stay in Cairns, Far North Qld, let me know, I’ll be happy to help out.
This is a site I was playing around with a couple of months ago but never found a use for it. This takes you to the registration page to show how the membership process would work since it would be a members only site. https://pipnsam.com/nomadbuddy/register/
If anyone is uncomfortable providing an email (I won’t save them or use them for any purpose), I will set up a fake account and send you the info.
This is just a test site on the server I’m using, so there certainly may be some glitches. If anyone is interested, I could set things up or copy the site to someone else’s server. I know @Brenna was just joking but I had it sitting around so I thought I would offer it. If it’s a silly idea, that’s ok too
Yes, it’s just the basic framework right now. Once on the site, you can click on “Activities” at the top of the page to get the equivalent of a facebook “home” page. You can also send and accept friend requests to see other users messages.
After that you will see your “friends” on the right side along with who is online among your friends.
I’m afraid in order to “stop” it should first be established whether a revived Bhikkhuni order in Theravada and Vajrayana (where the lineages broke) is a legitimate organization. Without this being unequivocally proven, there’s no reason whatsoever for critics to stop, and they actually do have a point, and compassion has little to do with it. Because you know, if the organization is “illegitimate”, then it is no different, technically, from any self-proclaimed sect. Please get me right, I’m not against women ordination in these traditions per se (why would I be?), but in the end there are only two possibilities: either it is legitimate (in the scope of respective traditions), or not. In the first case, even if traditional sanghas frown upon revived bhikkhuni sangha, it’s basically their problem, and if presented with facts, they eventually will have to accept it. In the second case, it’s the problem of those wanting to be ordained. The “problem” of these or those here is not only in mundane point of view, but also considering kammic effects.
This issue, of course, is separate from individuals themselves adhering to Dhamma to this or that degree. Even a layperson can get serious fruits of the Path. And a bhikkhuni, that lives by Dhamma, “legitimate” or not, is a great gift to the world. The same is any man or woman who does not have a robe, but lives by Dhamma, actually.
Thank you for joining the conversation. For this life, the proof is done, the legitamacy is there. Please, keep hold of your questions as long as they serve you, for study, for meditation, for equanimity, for perhaps souls are at stake, and compassion requires your study.
That’s one of the very few things about the bhikkhuni order that frustrate me: so many Dhamma talks given by nuns and online discussions they participate in revolve around the legitimacy of bhikkhuni ordination that it kind of defeats the purpose of becoming a nun in the first place. It is certainly not their fault that they have to talk so much about them being legitimate Buddhist monastics, as you pointed out in your comment, but at the same time, the preponderance of these discussions and gender issues in general when it comes to Buddhist nuns is a double-edged sword.
I as a layman don’t feel like I am progressing spiritually from reading or taking part in bhikkhuni ordination discussions for the umpteenth time, and I think this is also true for the nuns themselves. Because, you know, it is hard to make spiritual progress or give spiritual advice without accommodation, food, or means to obtain food, or if some people believe you to be a fraud nun. This goes against the tacit agreement existing between the Sangha and layfolk: the former enjoys material support by the latter, and the latter enjoys spiritual support by the former. For the nuns to break this vicious circles of not being able to give us adequate spiritual advice and thus not getting even basic material support from us, laypeople should just give them a hand. We should ignore the stupid bickering over whether or not bhikkhuni ordination is legitimate and just offer them our help, no matter how little it may be.
This is why I think Ayya’s essay is important. We are all tired of this ‘illegitimate-or-not’ malarkey, we all want the real thing. The nuns want some basic material support that would guarantee they could stay nuns, recognition or non-recognition by other communities be damned. The laypeople want spiritual guidance and advice that doesn’t revolve around legitimizing the figure of the spiritual guide herself, recognition or non-recognition by other communities be damned. So let’s just stop.
As Thailand is a mature country, one i find lovely, full of Dhamma practice, i am going to offer it as an example for some things. Please know these are for the purpose of benefiting both of us, and harm to none.
The Thai Sangha has claimed authority without taking responsibility for all Theravada Forest - y Buddhists. This is not a critism, it is seeing it like it is. How could any smaller group effectively teach and counsel and all, for everyone?
What bothers me more is those who do not take, or support those tesponsible taking, responsibility for the assaults in 1928 in Thailand. Nor to my knowledge has timely response to condemn arson in the last year or so, been offered. That might still be timely, and might still be in the works; i do not know and i hope those best suited have it in their care.
Yes. Or if people misrepresent the Buddha, it is hard to make progress. Thus, are the best monastics very careful, humble, avoiding group think or any foolishness.
I suspect many raised in Buddhist countries are bewildered by some Western reactions to what appear to be well intentioned actions. I have seen and experienced bewilderment and pain in reaction to the range of Buddhist monastic activities in Asia; some are difficult, some are impossible for this life to understand. Monastics urging nationalism. Monastics breaking vows yet still presenting as monks. Monastics excusing violence or suggesting 1 that human beings are not human beings and 2 advocating violent, unrelenting conflict with human beings as if this could help Buddhists or Buddhism, as if this does not damage themselves and every living being in this world.
I rely on the Dhamma, on the Buddha, on the Sangha which is Noble, not in that order, as i would hope every Buddhist does.
I suggest - if a topic is difficult for us lay, we should avoid it, rather than take sides. But of course this is difficult to do… like many practices.
With respect, metta for us both, thank you again for this conversation. Reading your email again.
edit. I thought i was replying to email. But i can live with it, knowing others might be… surprised? Metta all around.
This is very true. True legitimacy IMO will not come in the near future. Let’s say that, in the unlikely event, all those monks who oppose Bhikkhuni ordination, one day accept it, then it will go on record as something very monumental. But it will still be recalled say in 1000 years as something which was done arbitrarily by the monk community and as something not directly done by the Buddha. My point is that this restoring the lineage idea, however well it is done, will be less than normal.
Fortunately though, the Dhamma is still available in its pristine purity. What one needs to do is practice it wholeheartedly. After all layman, laywoman, monk and nun are all conventions. Out of all those robed and ordained monks who oppose Bhikkhuni ordination, how many follow the Dhamma in its true form let alone achieving any stage such as Satapanna.?. The answer is hardly any. In fact the mere reason why they oppose such recognition is their own lack of Dhamma knowledge. The Buddha has never said that if lineage gets broken sometime in the future then no women can practice his teaching as a Bhikkhuni from that point onward.
I think as the Buddha himself said that ignorance is the cause of Dukkha, this is also a drama the so called ordained monks exhibit out of ignorance. Therefore, everyone in spite of their gender should endeavor to practice Dhamma without getting bogged down in finding perfection in things which are only superficial.
Having said that, I wholeheartedly support a revival of Bhikkhuni ordination and pray that all obstacles in that path be cleared in the nearest possible future.
With Metta
Would we have the same discussion the other way round? If for some weird historical reason the male lineage was cut in one sect, relying only on bhikkhunis, and then bhikkhus wanted to re-establish themselves - would people really ask if that would be ‘legitimate’?
As a lay Buddhist I felt deeply about the situation you reveal in this piece. As a Western Buddhist, and like so many others at this otherwise exciting time for Buddhism’s growth in the West, I have thought about the role of women generally in 21st-century Buddhism and wondered about the role (or is it plight?) of nuns. Even the terms “role” and “place” seem limiting insofar as it cannot be a situation where the role and place of lay and ordained women is determined by a male-dominated Sangha alone. As a suggestion (and my apologies if such measures have already been undertaken) perhaps there needs to be a series of Councils convened by a combination of lay and ordained Buddhists of equal gender, across the traditions, with sufficient power to recommend changes. I know from experience across more than 20 years involvement with a number of Buddhist organisations in Australia that cultural issues also play a part which can confound newcomers at first and I am sufficiently aware of sensibilities to know that those issues need to be approached with compassion and loving-kindness, but change must take place. I applaud your heartfelt comments Venerable and I am gladdened to feel that I am part, as a layperson, of a Dhamma that is dynamic enough to allow its own growth.
Oh I am sure they would. People love this stuff, arguing and proving points. Besides, matriarchy is by no means more benign than patriarchy.
Ironically enough, the whole story of West trying to enforce its “undoubtedly correct way of doing things” onto other parts of the worlds and cultures seems to be a repeat of what happened in the past, where the West was performing the same thing, but with the Cross and trade ships (today it’s gender/equality/democracy questions and economic models). It just can’t get without making the whole world work its way, can it?
Sorry, I don’t think they would in Asia. Anyway, it’s hypothetical and a matter of opinion.
Haha, yes, “the West knows the Best”. But by no means it’s that simple. The actual social revolution in India happened before the Buddha - even if some Buddhist scholars think that the Buddha was the big social reformer. In the Upanisads we already have a very different position of women (and the ksatriya) in spirituality, being teachers themselves, pursuing the union with atman/brahman on equal footing as men.
Also the Niganthas/Jains (slightly older than Buddhism) have a more distinct tradition of women, both lay and monastic. Additionally we have reports of 3rd century BC Greek historians who report that in some areas girls and women were equally spiritually educated as men.
Lastly the comparative textual work of B. Analayo shows how there was more gender equality in older layers of the texts.
So yes, the Western discourse has a strong emphasis on topics like gender equality and democracy. But it is able to connect to social aspects of spiritual revolutions of the Indian past that were later covered again by social conservatist movements.
The question is justified - is the Sangha a spiritual institution or a social one? As much as I wished it was a spiritual one, it’s (in total) very much a social institution with a social purpose. Which is a shame for those individuals looking for the ideal environment to dedicate themselves totally to spiritual development.
I think, ideally, the goal would be to support all nuns everywhere, but at least right now, that’s not feasible.
. I’m sure the AfB still has a lot to offer to all nuns (and in turn everyone else) in terms of, knowledge, connections and so on. I guess an aliance of aliances should be forged. 
. Haha, an Alliance of Alliances would be great! Or we could create a Facebook for Nuns: Nunbook. 
But really, though, it would be great to find ways of connecting nuns to one another.
Which reminds me that I need to work on 
