Practising full time as a lay person

The Watercooler
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Greetings Stef :slight_smile:

Yes it is absolutely possible to be 100% devoted to the Dhamma without ordination. This is how I live. I had a bit of a natural progression in this direction but in 2009 the balance or focus tipped and I started consciously living with the 8 precepts and Practice at least 8-12 hours per day, until now there is only dhamma… Every bit of life transforms into an expression of dhamma… this is what I take to be full time. (But this can also be the case while doing some types of work - because - put bluntly - one still has to live )…

Rather than leaving ‘normal life’ behind, it was more a case of the Dhamma just overtook my life :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: If there were more than 24 hours in the day - then they would be devoted to the Dhamma as well… It really helps to have a big dose of Samvega :rofl:

I don’t think that the availability of time is the determining factor though - but rather how strong is the drive for Right Effort. It is this drive that is the impetus for ordination, and there was a time when I was quite bereft that this wasn’t an option open to me in this life…

This is my circumstance. It was quite an interesting situation - and basically came to the conclusion of … ‘well what is stopping you?’ Do you need someone’s ‘permission’ to practice and follow in the footsteps of the Buddha. I thought back to the earliest Disciples of the Buddha… before the Sangha was really developed… Their practice was pure and yielded results - why couldn’t that be the case today?? So I decided that being a Disciple of the Buddha (nothing more and nothing less) was the way to go :slightly_smiling_face:
One can keep as many precepts as one wants - hundreds of them if one chooses - there are no restrictions except for what is in our own heads :slight_smile: I’ve found that when everything is peeled away, what remains is just the Dhamma without the rites and rituals - no point to these if one is alone - though that’s not true I light a candle every morning when I wake to begin practice and to signify another new day in the Dhamma.

But I’ve come to the conclusion that whether one wears a robe or not is really incidental - I mean the ‘robe’ doesn’t determine the quality of ones practice… But of course ordination and being in the Monastic system is by far the preferable way to go.

What I’m getting at here though is that one doesn’t wait to begin practicing the Dhamma until one has time - one just practices as much as possible… the stronger the drive to do so, the more work life needs to be adapted. It really is about where ones priorities and focus are… I know of people who have changed their role at work to have less responsibility and/or conflict with their practice, as well as going to lesser hours. I think this is the way to ascertain if it will really make a difference by quitting work - if one is not already using up all of ones additional time on the dhamma, ie that the dhamma is priority number 1, then I think it is more in the realm of fantasy to want to totally give up work just to make time, or that simply by having more time, one will be more inclined to practice…

There are also just purely practical considerations… it is very very - very tough to practice to this degree on ones own without support…

Anyway if you have any specific questions I’d be happy to answer them for you. There are also many practitioners here for whom Dhamma is the priority in life, and who have found ways to adapt ‘lay life’ to enable this. :slight_smile:

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Thank you for your thorough answer and for sharing your experience! You make many valuable observations.
One thing I was reflecting upon was the idea that for a lay person who stops working, their relationship with money would become quite different to that of monastics. The latter rightly do not touch it; and this is possible because of the lay support (I am reminded of Ajahn Brahm’s humorously quoting a story involving Gandhi in which someone said ‘you have no idea how much it costs us to keep you poor’).
As a lay person you would have to be quite careful with money instead, because it is what gives you freedom and independence and you would have to make sure that it lasts both for you and for people who depend on you (if there are any). I can’t remember the name of the potter from the suttas who was highly attained and who left pots for people to take and just said they could leave some offerings, but I don’t think it would be easy to survive this way today…
Don’t know if this makes sense to you and if you have any thoughts?

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that’s quite interesting because I also thought that sometimes, but why is that a problem, if it fulfils the need of lay people to have something to look up to? I mean just like people have a need to give, they also have a need to respect or venerate. Does this makes sense? Anyway that’s the answer I have found because I have also been bothered by this sometimes.

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@anon38204780 There are many advantages to ordination - really I believe this offers the best practice conditions. In working through my own situation, I began analysing the impingements by the different conditions in my environment… one has to develop a heightened sense of what conditions facilitate the practice and which ones hinder it the most. It is not possible to get ‘perfect’ conditions - but full awareness of how the conditions are impacting is very important, and one can make skillful and targeted adjustments.

It is also not static, but changes over time as practice develops. So the degree of relinquishment for me increased over time. The more one relinquishes, the clearer it is to see what impact/effect the things one remains holding on to has. This is an intesresting process, as for monastics there is a huge relinquishment where everything is given up - one walks away from all possessions, roles and status, etc

I found that on my path, the relinquishement started small and kept growing. So to start with the things that were relinquished were aligned with the 8 precepts - so entertainment, indulgence in food, relationships/sex… they were just not of interest anymore. Then came the relinquishment of identity/image/status… See what attachments you have to the different roles you have :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: and cut them loose :smiley: I shave my head, and have relinquished all my clothes/shoes/jewellery etc… I wear a non-descript and modest pinafore/smock like a uniform - no need to even think about clothes or appearance.

(it is also really interesting because I feel that in this case identity has really been given up - and not transformed eg when one goes forth one becomes a monk or nun, in my case I’ve become - nothing :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: :rofl: :slightly_smiling_face:)

When listed like this, it can sound insignificant or small, but relinquishment on each level has deep practice ramifications.

Now I can really feel the impact/impingement/effect of ownership of the things remaining, including money. The less one has the more clearly one can see the dukkha of ownership and possessions. It would just be wonderful to be able to relinquish these as well. Though, not being supported by anyone, one has to have certain things in order to survive… I have a place to live, a car, and household goods… But I’ve found ways to use this experience to further practice… as long as one can see the cause and effect of the different conditions - there is much material to work with. But one needs to have relinquished quite a lot - removed the clutter or ‘dirt’ to be able to even begin to see this. It is literally like the Buddhas simile of the pond covered in in plants and scum - you need to clear them away to begin to see through to the clarity of the water beneath…

This is a definite anchor… I am lucky, I have no dependents… I think that would make things very difficult re relinquishment.

There is also a difference depending on what ones aspirations are - the further one wants to take the path - the more needs to be relinquished… dissolving the Sense of Self is a very challenging task, and there are anchors/hooks and hindrances everywhere… But really I’d say not to get too caught up in planning. Nothing turns out the way one imagines it anyway… start with small steps - after a while it takes on a momentum of its own, and one just goes along for the ride :slight_smile: This is certainly how I have experienced things… Now it feels like the momentum is just happening and has almost nothing to do with me anymore :smiley:

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May I ask how you support yourself financially? Are you retired and have enough savings to live? If that’s too personal a question, I fully understand.

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LOL yes that’s pretty personal :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: But I don’t mind sharing if this can be inspiration for anyone else wanting to practice full time as a Lay person…

To put it into context it has taken me over 20 years to ‘massage’ things into the current situation. It has been a gradual process, always making choices that would lead to this end. It has not been like an on/off switch, but a ‘transformation’ of how to make a living. SO to start with in 1999 I was a high flying career woman :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Then came a crash and burn and the ignition of Samvega :fire: :fire: :fire:
I quit work, got a divorce, and moved to a rural property using savings and selling up the city house and continued to work as a consultant, and agisting cattle on the property. Over the next 20 years all choices were driven by the desire to be more and more ‘harmless’ and to devote more and more time to the Dhamma. With more and more relinquishment, my needs became more and more modest. In fact it is hard to believe the amount of money I used to spend - and what I thought was ‘required’ :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
So with savings and juggling, money was invested and now I have a small passive income stream. Note: it is our beliefs that are the brakes… At one stage I thought I’d be living on a disability pension… that too is fine. But one can find an environment that is conducive to practice. Living in a hut in the bush is not expensive :slight_smile: but most people would look at that option with horror - yet it is a pretty fantastic practice environment.

It is important to have a very realistic look at what are the real barriers to practice, and also whether the wish to take practice to a deeper level is just a bit of daydreaming/wishful thinking… to make it real - one has to give up the things one has been brought up and conditioned to value… I think it is impossible to take practice to really deep levels without leaving the ‘normal life’ behind, whether one is ordained or not - essentially the practice is the same.

Not a single step was easy, and I got a lot of flack from my family and friends for what seemed to them to be irrational choices (I actually think it is harder to not be ordained, because that gives a legitimate framework for relinquishment, and people can relate to the idea of a monk or nun more easily - otherwise you are just a ‘crazy person’ :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes: :rofl:)…
But step by tiny step… just keep moving in the right direction. One thing is for sure - don’t wait for perfect conditions - because they don’t exist :slight_smile: Just start NOW in whatever conditions one finds oneself :slight_smile:

I’ve written a lot here, and shared of my journey… I do so only in the hope that others will see that there are fewer limits to deep practice as a Lay person than is often claimed. It all comes down to the strength of desire for the Dhamma. If there is the Intention and the Effort and it is driven by Right View, then it can be done :pray: :dharmawheel:

And just to conclude… most of my family and friends finally ‘get it’… they can see the results :slight_smile: and this is wonderful as it awakens new ideas and possibilities for how they view what is important in life :slight_smile: And now after 20 years I find myself in Khemavara Buddhist Sanctuary :relieved:

May there be many more, and may every Being who wishes to follow the teachings of the Buddha do so, all the way to Liberation
:thaibuddha: :dharmawheel: :relieved:

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/buddha-beings/12509/423

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Hi @stef

It was Ghatikara! His friend Jotipala became the Buddha in a subsequent rebirth. I love that story!

I do know a couple of Sri Lankan ‘laywomen’ who wear white robes but keep the ten precepts. They rely on family to deal with the money stuff and book onto as many retreats as they can get into. They also stay at the monasteries from time to time. One of them practically lives full-time at various monasteries, only going home when she has ‘maxed out’ the allowable time there and/or they have other bookings and no space. I’ve heard monks jokingly refer to her as a ‘permanent resident’ at Bodhinyana though she is currently helping out at Santi for a while.

I’ve also met many others who basically live a life where they ‘monastery hop.’ Staying at monasteries and retreat centres as much as possible is a good booster or refresher to your practice.

Given the nature of the lifestyle, you don’t tend to see or hear about people practising like this for yourself very often, but it is inspiring to meet people who actually do this. Hanging out on this forum is also quite beneficial in that respect - thank you @Viveka for sharing your story!

The only extra advice I would give is throw out your TV and don’t hang out at shopping centres or read the news etc. It’s amazing how overstimulating those things can be.

As to monasteries being more ‘social.’ My limited exposure living in one and visiting a few others is that this just isn’t so. If you only visit during the daytime, it may appear that way because monastics are required to come out to take their food and ‘be visible’ for the laypeople and to offer the anumodana. You will find that the vast majority of them, while they are seen, don’t actually engage with the laypeople all that often. Yes, some do, but usually, it is only an odd occasion where they do. They are very good at disappearing by 12pm!!

Having lived as a monastic (too personal to talk about why I disrobed, sorry), and now doing the layperson thing until I can get back to a monastery, I would highly recommend the monastic path. Just dealing with the necessities of life adds so much burden to your life and so much engagement with the world. It is not at all ideal. If you can’t do the monastic path, then living as simply as you possibly can - including giving up work if that is possible - is certainly the way to go.

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I’d just like to add one final thing

There are many ways to practice as a Lay person. My story is just one example and should only be viewed like that. I know of many people who are devoted to the Dhamma and for whom it is the central pillar of their life. To all intents and purposes they may look like ordinary people from the outside, living quietly, practicing and not making a fuss or drawing attention to themselves, but their life is spent in service, with ethical conduct, and actively furthering the dhamma. This includes all the Lay supporters of monastics and Buddhist societies. Indeed there are so many here on the forum, including so many who volunteer to support their dhamma communities, who teach, who translate and those who help disseminate the teachings, and those who volunteer a whole range of skills.

There are so many ways to Practice and to further the Dhamma - with so many possibilities - something to suit everyone at every stage.

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Ghatikara the potter, from MN 81

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Wow, I’ve really enjoyed reading this particular thread! Thanks @anon38204780 for creating it and thanks to all who shared and special thanks to @Viveka for sharing your story, it’s super inspiring :pray:

I think a lot of the times when you are a practicing lay person, it can feel as though you are the ‘only one’ that’s doing ‘this’ (‘this’ being your spiritual practice) and I must admit it can feel lonely sometimes. It’s nice to know and hear of others practice, thank you :slight_smile:

Sadhu X 3, anumodhana :pray:

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Hi Stef,

I’m not sure that there is that much control over how our individual practice unfolds. But I thoroughly recommend doing less work (by that I mean trading, for example, time for money). For me (as the wonderful @Viveka notes) there are many ways to support the ‘enlightenment project’. I remember non self, so it doesn’t matter where enlightenment takes hold, I just support the overall process wherever I see it blooming. Sometimes it’s within this ‘fathom long body’, sometimes in some other ‘fathom long body’.

This is the sort of thing I did a few decades ago. If you have few needs and trust in the law of kamma it seems to work surprisingly well. Things fall apart anyway, so no worries. I just do my stuff and let it go into the universe without expectations that anything will come back to me. Maybe the universe will support me, maybe it won’t. So far others have on the whole been very kind to me, which means I can be more kind to others. Win-win! Whatever way it turns out, I find that there are some good lessons to learn from the process. Good luck!

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That’s very true. A little life hack I discovered is that it helps to actively visualise all the wise people you know when you witness unskilful behaviour. Let’s say I see people drinking alcohol. Then (without judging anyone of course) I’d bring to mind all the monastics and upasikas I know who don’t drink. Helps me remember that drinking is not a given and I’m not alone in abstaining. Its so easy to forget that the way of the world is not a given. That there is another way.

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Based on the overall conversation in this thread, I’m guessing people are talking about ordination and monastic life in the Thai forest tradition, or something close to it. I say that because, generally speaking, the amount of veneration shown to monks is definitely the most extreme in that tradition. In almost every other tradition, the monastics and laity relate to each other in a much more relaxed manner. Also, being a monastic in the West is quite different than in Asia. So, outside of whatever little Buddhist bubble a monastic in the West might live in, he or she will probably be treated with indifference, suspicion, or even hostility by the majority of people. Within the Thai forest tradition, the respect shown to monks is a bit of a double-edged sword. With that respect comes expectations of very high standards of behavior. So you can expect to live under a microscope pretty much all of the time. In addition to the laity’s expectations, one’s fellow monastics will always be watching you and correcting even the slightest mistakes in monastic etiquette. So I wouldn’t feel too guilty for having a “high social level” as a monastic. It’s hardly a picnic.

The Thai forest tradition also generally has the least strictly structured daily routine of any tradition. It’s probably on one extreme end of the spectrum, while a Chinese Mahayana tradition would be on the other. I realize most people here probably don’t know too much about Mahayana traditions, but I thought it might be interesting to some to point out how different monastic life can be from monastery to monastery, or tradition to tradition. The Chinese Buddhist tradition as a whole really emphasizes being active and working. There’s a saying by a famous Chinese monk that goes, “A day without work is a day without food.” So, that along with the bodhisattva ideal creates very busy monastics. In the Chinese traditions, you can expect pretty much every minute of every day to be filled with some kind of work, outside of some chanting and (maybe) meditation in the morning and evening. They also don’t live in kutis, but usually live in more of a dormitory style arrangement. So everyone is piled up on top of each other. It’s intensely social. But even in a Thai forest tradition monastery you have to interact with fellow monastics, and like I said in the previous paragraph, because of korwat, vinaya, and the rules regarding the authority of senior monastics, those interactions are pretty intense because every little thing you say and do is being examined. It’s a mistake to think that monastic life is all about sitting in one’s kuti meditating, and that you rarely interact with others. While it might be true that the amount of time you interact with others in a monastery is far less than that in lay life, the quality of interaction is quite different. In lay life, if someone at work is treating you badly, you can just wait to go home, and then not have to deal with that person again until tomorrow, or after the weekend. And that person can’t tell you how you should behave in general. But in a strict monastery, you live with that person, and they do have the right to correct your behavior. Another thing that’s probably worth mentioning is that it’s very likely that there will be other people living in the monastery who, in lay life, you’d never be friends with. So the person who keeps correcting your behavior might be someone you genuinely dislike. However, so long as they aren’t breaking any rules, and are justified in correcting you, there isn’t anything you can do about it.

Anyway, those are just some general observations I made over the years from staying at different monasteries and speaking with different monks and nuns about monastic life. It’s quite easy to romanticize monastic life, but it can be quite trying and not always for the reasons one expects.

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You’ve made some very good points, thank you for sharing. I guess the overall message perhaps is to ‘take advantage’ and practice however you can in whatever situation you find yourself in. :slight_smile:

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A nun once told me, “When you’re a layperson, you have the suffering of a layperson. When you’re a monastic, you have the suffering of a monastic.” So you have to chose which kind of suffering you want, ha-ha.

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This may be of interest to participants in this thread: an interview with David Holmes, an experienced lay practitioner and Buddhist scholar.

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Thank you for sharing, Viveka. Your path is inspiring and shows that it is indeed possible to practice very strongly as a layperson in the modern world. My plan is to create a similar living situation for myself in the future.

:anjal:

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Thank you for these great observations and reflections.

yes that was indeed what I had in mind

There’s a very similar popular saying in Italy which I heard a lot as a child, and which has marked me. And ironically the first time I felt free from that was when I spent a vassa at a monastery in the Thai Forest tradition. In order to develop your practice during that period you were encouraged to let go of all striving and doing - which of course includes work. So yes these traditions seem indeed very different.
The thing is that as a monastic at least in some traditions I understand that doing nothing is a very good thing, at least during vassa; on the other hand as a lay person you may be judged negatively, as lazy, so you might have to go against social pressure.

Indeed this can be pretty worrying. Wouldn’t this however depend a lot on the monastery? I inquired about a similar point with a monk I know, and he said that in the monastery I was talking about there’s a non-spoken rule that the abbot is like the sun and all the other monks are lie planets gravitating around him. So it would be the abbot who teaches and (hopefully) the one who corrects you. So insofar as one would ordain in a monastery because they are inspired by the abbot, and you respect and trust him, then it would be a good thing to be corrected by him.

I completely understand your point. However, like you mention, they would/could correct you if they are justified in doing so. So in this sense wouldn’t you say that they are rendering you a service?

What would be worrying, or even scary, is if they exerted their power on you just for the sake of it. For example there was a story in one of Ajahn Brahm’s books about an abbot telling a monk to wash his robes after an all night meditation session; I never understood how that could lead to any benefit and indeed I found that a bit scary to be honest.

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Yeah, I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all solution for this. People who in lay life are very motivated or ambitious, and fill all of their time with activities and projects, need to spend some time doing the opposite now and then, I think.

Yes, it would depend on the monastery. Even within the Ajahn Cha monasteries there’s variation, especially between monasteries in Thailand and those outside Thailand. All of my experience with the Ajahn Cha tradition is at monasteries within Thailand. However, according to Vinaya, even someone ordained 1 minute before you has seniority. So they do have some authority over you.

It will depend on the size of the monastery and the popularity of the teacher, among other things. Take Wat Marp Jan, for example. The abbot is Tan Ajahn Anan, who was a close disciple of Luang Por Cha. Tan Ajahn Anan is believed to be an arahant. He now has many monks living at his monastery, many branch monasteries he’s responsible for, and probably has thousands of lay followers. He is so busy that a monk living in his monastery would be unlikely to interact with him much on a day to day basis (although I think he still tries to make himself available to his monks as much as possible). Anyway, Tan Ajahn Anan is not going to take responsibility for resolving every minor issue within the monastery. There’s no way he has time for that, and the Vinaya is set up so that every monk, regardless of seniority, is able to correct another monk, actually. So he isn’t even expected to handle things at that granular of a scale. The only time a problem with a monk in his monastery will be brought to his attention is if the monk refuses to change his behavior.

I probably wasn’t clear enough on this point. Yes, a perfect practitioner would thank the monk/nun and see it as a service rendered. But people aren’t perfect, and it’s always easier to accept criticism from someone we like than someone we don’t, isn’t it? So imagine you just don’t like this person (maybe they’re openly sexist, which happens…you never know!), you have a history with him/her, you didn’t sleep well the night before or something else is bothering you, and they come up to AGAIN to correct some minor thing you did wrong. Because you aren’t enlightened yet, you get upset (which is perfectly normal as an unenlightened being), and bang, you snap at them or have an argument. And it’s your fault because they were in the right to correct you, even though they knew you were having a rough day and could have waited, but didn’t (because they aren’t enlightened yet, either). That sort of thing isn’t too uncommon, from what I’ve seen.

I’ve seen that sort of thing happen. You can object to it, but it can always be turned around on you as an opportunity to practice. This kind of stuff seems to happen more often when rules and discipline is emphasized over metta.

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I have been reading this forum for a while now, but was inspired to create an account to respond to your point above, because that particular story of Ajahn Brahm’s has been something that really benefited my practice, and I think about it quite often.

In the story as I recall it, the monk is a bit upset at having to wash the robes because he’s tired after the all night meditation. Ajahn Brahm, having been in that situation before as a younger monk, gives some advice: “Thinking about it is much harder than doing it. The hardest part of anything in life is thinking about it.” Once the monk who is washing the robes understands, he lets go of the upset feelings about being asked to do the task when he’s tired, and just washes the robes with his mind unburdened by resentment.

This story comes back to me often when I’m “stuck” in a situation where I’m having some resentment or resistance to life circumstances and my mind gets going in a loop of negative emotions. If I can remind myself that the suffering is coming from what I’m thinking about the situation, not really from the situation itself, I can often drop the negative emotions and the situation immediately becomes much less difficult to deal with.

This is just my own personal take on that story, but it really did lead to a lot of benefit in my own life and practice, so I thought it might be helpful to share. :smiling_face:

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