SuttaCentral
shall i go looking for something i do not see, when it might cause bother for others?
Probably not.
The only point that bothered me is possible suggestion of something being defined by the Buddha {correction: defined in the suttas} which seems imo to be extrapolated…
What I’ve suggested wouldn’t cause bother for others. In short, I’ve only suggested that we be more mindful of who the Buddha was addressing in a given discourse, and that the discourses that were specifically given to lay followers (e.g., SN 12.41, AN 6.10) not be overlooked or understated.
oh well if that’s all…
[quote=“tonysharp, post:7, topic:9445”]
People won’t see this distinction if they continue to blur the lines between the suttas given to monastics and the laity.
[/quote] emphasis added
Both “they” who “blur” and “the lines” then seem to be figures of speech, mirages as it were, that disappear with explanation.
Thank you for your patience; i was worried over nothing, it seems.
Perhaps relevant to this discussion, in response to a question about why the Buddha would teach reappearance by aspiration/rebirth by choice (MN 120), Bhikku Bodhi gives a helpful analogy illustrating the correlation between our abilities and aspirations, and how the Buddha’s teachings accommodate people with lower and higher spiritual ability.
Paraphrased from 22:03:
“Somebody is in a lower level management position. He’s saving up his money and thinking: ‘May I get a new Toyota.’ And maybe he gets a promotion with a larger salary. He’ll be saving up, but he won’t be thinking of the Toyota anymore. ‘Let me get a Mercedes-Bens.’ Now he gets appointed CEO. So he’s going to drop the thought of buying a Mercedes, and now he’s thinking about purchasing a yacht or a private plane. With the position then his aspiration is going to change.”
The Toyota is analogous to rebirth in a heavenly realm; the Mercedes is analogous to stream-entry, and the private plane is analogous to arahatship. The Buddha provides instruction for each of these paths.
equating spiritual aspirations with what sounds like materialistic greed to me is troubling.
edit: such snalogies imo reinforce non harmlessless views.
Yet the Buddha used this approach to (temporarily) motivate one of his bhikkhus:
“Take delight, Nanda! Take delight, Nanda! I am your surety for gaining five hundred celestial dove-footed nymphs!”
Thank you @mikenz66
So my discomfort, on this day when the body i use is ill, the brain not functioning at its best, and the mood somewhat depressed in response to the body, is profound.
Actually, on reflection, I thought of (IMHO) a better finish to this simile:
This simile is about the fabricated path, and development might give more happiness in this life, rebirth in deva realms, etc (nicer and nicer cars).
However, real awakening will eventually bypass this:
… So he’s going to drop the thought of buying a Mercedes, and now he’s thinking about purchasing a yacht or a private plane.
But, at that point he realises that a better vehicle is not the answer. He becomes disenchanted with vehicles.
So he spreads his wings and flies off into the sunset…
Like Ven Nanda, who eventually abandons the idea of getting the celestial nymphs… 
FAR too much is made of distinctions between the laity and monastics. Having lived in Asia for nearly a decade, I can say with confidence that the view that monastics are very different and superior to lay people is prevalent-- like the view that men are superior to women. Such views have turned Buddhism into a means of building up walls and egos and looking down on and discriminating against others. Practitioners should focus on the most essential teachings and avoid unhelpful categorizations between perceived “selves” and “others.” Truly important teachings are the same for everyone.
“Fabricated” implies that the Buddha taught something that was contrived or deceptive. I don’t believe that the Buddha would waste people’s time in this way. Everything that he taught was taught for a reason, and none of the paths that he laid forth are “fabricated.”
To eliminate all ten fetters to attain arahatship in this life, you essentially have to become a monk. Naturally, this isn’t possible for everyone, particularly those who have to work to support a family “crowded with children” (SN 3.11). Likely taking this into consideration, the Buddha prescribed different paths.
It’s akin to completing a marathon. Not everyone has the athleticism to run one, and there’s nothing wrong if someone can’t. We should be considerate of people’s abilities, and not expect everyone to conform to one way of doing things. The Buddha certainly didn’t as evident by the forty meditation objects he taught. Further, the Samyutta Nikaya has an entire chapter dedicated to stream-entry.
The path is fabricated (conditioned), by definition. Ie not unfabricated…
Edit: Here are a couple of quotes about the conditioned nature of the 8FP and of jhana:
If you meant fabricated in the sense that the paths taught by the Buddha are subject to conditions, I agree. Our position in life—and the conditions therein—do play a factor in our aspirations. This is what Bhikki Bodhi’s analogy was referring to. Money was used to illustrate one’s spiritual progress, and vehicles were used to illustrate the stages of enlightenment.
People who are privileged to practice in a secluded place or temple could likely progress faster than someone who lives in a “dusty” household, or—even worse—a violence-ridden city; I’ve been there.
As AN 5.57 reminds us, we’re all subject to death, and death can happen at anytime. If someone’s living situation is clearly unsuitable for deep practice, aiming for a good rebirth or stream-entry would be appropriate given the time that they may (or may not) have. If their living situation improved, and became more spiritually conducive (i.e., they got a promotion), they could aim higher.
Hi Tony
I meant fabricated/conditioned in that they are generated by conditions/choices.
From the suttas I linked to above:
The noble eightfold path is said to be the best of all conditioned things.
Yāvatā, bhikkhave, dhammā saṅkhatā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo tesaṃ aggamakkhāyati.
SuttaCentral
Then they reflect:
So iti paṭisañcikkhati:
‘Even this first absorption is produced by choices and intentions.’
‘idampi kho paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ’.
They understand: ‘But whatever is produced by choices and intentions is impermanent and liable to cessation.’
‘Yaṃ kho pana kiñci abhisaṅkhataṃ abhisañcetayitaṃ, tadaniccaṃ nirodhadhamman’ti pajānāti.
Abiding in that they attain the ending of defilements.
So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti;
SuttaCentral
The things we develop on the path, such as jhana, are conditioned/fabricated and must eventually be abandoned. Of course, that doesn’t make them worthless, any more than a raft is worthless for crossing a river. But the raft isn’t the goal…
The duality between money vs spirituality should be transcended. How can one become enlightened when averse to wealth? 
with metta
If you’re suggesting that aspiring for a higher rebirth or stream-entry wasn’t the goal, it depends. In several suttas where householders were the audience, stream-entry was the goal (SN 55.7). Other times it wasn’t.
From the texts, it’s clear that the Buddha generally felt that arahatship superseded the other stages of enlightenment. Regardless, he didn’t try to put everyone on the same fast lane to that attainment.
Sure. I was in no way being negative about any progress along the path. The point was that it is all fabricated/conditioned.
A relevant Dhamma talk posted a couple days ago. Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes the point that while we all fundamentally have the same problems, these problems don’t always respond to the same approach. It can be helpful to supplement breath meditation, which is generally considered the safest of the techniques, with other techniques to broaden one’s practice, or to address a specific defilement.
