I have read often on Buddhist forums the subject of “Liberated Both Ways”, which is liberation by wisdom using the Noble Eightfold Path and liberation using the immaterial spheres.
In MN 140, the Buddha discourages a monk from developing the immaterial spheres, which would indicate a monk that has developed the four jhana can easily develop the four immaterial spheres.
In SN 8.7 there are 500 Arahant monks including 60 arahants liberated both ways. I would think an Arahant monk that has developed the four jhana should easily be able to develop the four immaterial sphere.
Therefore my question is for what reasons would Arahants not develop immaterial jhana? Thank you.
The reason why they should, or rather why they would try to attain experiences when senses don’t work is rather simple: it is more pleasant than mere jhanas, and since such pleasure is on the side of kusala, there is absolutely no reason not to enjoy it.
There could be the other reasons why they should try to attain immaterial states, for example:
“A forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms.694 There are those who ask a forest-dwelling bhikkhu a question on the liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms. If, when so asked, he fails to reply, there will be those who would say of him: ‘What has this venerable forest-dweller gained by his dwelling alone in the forest, doing as he likes, since when he is asked a question about those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, he fails to reply?’ Since there will be those who would say this of him, a forest-dwelling bhikkhu should apply himself to those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms. MN 69
So your answer is rather unsatisfactory to this particular dialectic.
That is interesting, but could you give us exact quote of such “discouragement”?
Each higher state of concentration requires additional skill, it is an “improvement” in comparison to the lower state of concentration. Perhaps to transform the four jhana to the base of infinite space isn’t as easy as you think?
This is the MN 140 quote. Apologies for the formatting, I’m currently on a mobile device.
One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that ‘If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness… the dimension of nothingness… the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.’ One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that ‘Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’
Now I understand to what passage do you refer, but your interpretation of this quote as well as inference based on your interpretation is quite mystifying for me.
Suppose that the quote can be seen as “discouragement” from immaterial states, how it can be seen as the proof that mastery over jhanas secure the easy access to immaterial attainments? I may not see that relationship because of my limited mental powers, so let it be, perhaps you can demonstrate such relationships.
But first of all, the quote should not be interpreted as discouragement from immaterial states per se, but it should be seen in the specific context when one is discouraged from any kind of experience whatsoever, after one was already successfully discouraged from self-identification with all what can be found in the field of consciousness. (At least when experience is described in the terms of elements)
Hi. This topic is interesting although I cannot suggest any answers to the questions. I have read this sutta. The elements are also an experience. This sutta does encourage the experience of feeling feelings with detachment which is Nibbana. It says:
There remains only consciousness, pure and bright.
And what does that consciousness know?
It knows ‘pleasure’ and ‘pain’ and ‘neutral’.
If they feel a pleasant feeling, they feel it detached.
If they feel a painful feeling, they feel it detached.
If they feel a neutral feeling, they feel it detached.
Feeling the end of the body approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of the body approaching.’ Feeling the end of life approaching, they understand: ‘I feel the end of life approaching.’
They understand: ‘When my body breaks up and my life has come to an end, everything that’s felt, since I no longer take pleasure in it, will become cool right here.’
Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate foundation of wisdom.
For this is the ultimate noble wisdom, namely,
the knowledge of the ending of suffering.
Their freedom, being founded on truth, is unshakable.
For that which is false has a deceptive nature, while that which is true has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment.
Therefore a mendicant thus endowed is endowed with the ultimate resolve of truth.
For this is the ultimate noble truth, namely,
that which has an undeceptive nature—extinguishment.
MN 140
If an arahant has destroyed greed, hatred, delusion, attachment & self-identification, what is there to hinder the arahant from attaining the formless spheres? I think this is the pertinent question here. What exactly is the “additional skill” you referred to an arahant may not have?
Friend, you are confusing unshakable liberation of mind, which one cannot lose, with various stages of absorbtions. Due to certain conditions arahat may not be able even to attain jhanas, much less immaterial states.
At Sāvatthı̄. [239] “Bhikkhus, gain, honour, and praise, I say, are an obstacle even for a bhikkhu who is an arahant, one with taints destroyed.”When this was said, the Venerable Ānanda asked the Blessed One: “Why, venerable sir, are gain, honour, and praise an obstacle even for a bhikkhu with taints destroyed?”“I do not say, Ānanda, that gain, honour, and praise are an obstacle to his unshakable liberation of mind. But I say they are an obstacle to [his attainment of] those pleasant dwellings in this very life which are achieved by one who dwells diligent, ardent, and resolute.
So dreadful, Ānanda, are gain, honour, and praise, so bitter, vile, obstructive to achieving the unsurpassed security from bondage. Therefore, Ānanda, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will abandon the arisen gain, honour, and praise, and we will not let the arisen gain, honour, and praise persist obsessing our minds.’ Thus should you train yourselves.”
SN 17 : 30
It means that ability to attain such stages of concentration, which after all may as well be attained by puthujjana, aren’t directly related to the perfect liberation of mind from greed, hate and delusion.
Hi. I read in MN 117 arahants have attained ten factors of the Path which includes four jhana.
I now read this sutta. It says the busyness of gaining social fame & popularity are obstructions to the blissful meditations that have been achieved. If monk spends their day giving ceremonies, talks & counselling to laypeople obviously they are not abiding in jhana without thoughts. If you click on the Pali word adhigata from the SN 17.30 the dictionary says adhigata is a past attainment.
got into possession of, conquered, attained, found Ja.i.374; Vv-a.135.
pp. of adhigacchati
I have never read it is a Buddhist principle Arahants often do not attain the four jhanas of the Noble Eightfold Path. SN 17.30 reads it is about temporary loss of past attainment rather than new attainment of a non-attainment. SN 17.30 reads it is a subject of the 4th of the Four Right Efforts (the effort to maintain) rather than a subject of the 3rd Right Effort (effort to develop).
This is not in the sutta. Technically speaking, the portal to leave this world is in 4th jhana realm, not the arupa jhana realms even though they are of higher dimensions.
