Rebirth, rebirth, rebirth

This thread is IMO a fairly healthy conversation that probably needed to be had (the other recent thread had seemed to me to have gotten a bit too “meta” and away from discussing the core points before it was closed).

I’m not on any particular side, given that I consider myself an agnostic (albeit one with a serious spiritual practice). At this point I don’t feel I can call myself a Buddhist (though I’ve no issues with how people use this label) because I’m agnostic (but open-minded) about some key doctrinal points like rebirth. I might stretch to using “Buddhist” as an adjective, i.e. as in “Buddhist agnostic”, but I’d not be comfortable using it as a noun, i.e. as in “agnostic Buddhist”. I’ve been deeply impressed by the EBTs. The Buddha was surely one of humanity’s great thinkers/philosophers, but that has not been enough in itself convince me that he was necessarily right about everything.

I can definitely respect the argument made by Ajahn Brahmali in the OP. There’s a lot to be said for clearly and respectfully setting out one’s stall and calling a spade a spade (even if some others may think it’s a lawnmower! :slight_smile: ). The Buddha did give prominence of place to rebirth (no doubt for good reasons). It can’t be a surprise if a prominent and long-standing monk working with the EBTs is passionately arguing for an approach taking the EBTs pretty much at face value!

However, I also identify a lot with, let’s say, the more philosophical wings of this argument (represented by people like DKervick). It’s quite possible I may continue not have any solid belief in rebirth and some other doctrinal issues until/if I get to the stage of the path where I can see them directly myself. I’d hope that solid faith in rebirth is not a prerequisite. DKervick does make the valid point that the Buddha didn’t see the reality of rebirth until his enlightenment under the Bodhi tree. Of course, Ajahn Brahmali makes the counter-point that the Buddha was an exceptional individual who may not have needed faith (that is as it may be, but I can’t manufacture faith to order! :slight_smile: ).

Either way, regardless of the reality of rebirth, I hope following the steps of the path leads me to increasing freedom from suffering (the same direction both the author of the OP and DKervick are heading, it seems to me, despite the somewhat different enveloping contextual frameworks of both). Of course, arguments can certainly be had over which doctrinal/belief framework is better/more useful, which I’m sure this thread will argue over!

I think that for rebirth, in the sense as described by the Buddha, to exist, some kind of non-physical non-material component to the universe is necessary. I have a science background myself. I don’t see any plausible mechanisms within the framework of our current scientific understanding for this (even via the usual appeals to some kind of vague fuzzy quantum theory “magic”). Certainly not the fine-grained availability of past-life memories. IMO something more is needed, some kind of psychical dimension to the universe.

The fruits of para-psychological field over many decades are far from impressive or convincing, e.g. continual arguments up to the present day over Ganzfeld experiments and like (sensory leakage, methodology, reproducibility etc. etc.). You’d think the field would have been able to come up with something better by now. That’s, unsurprisingly, enough to convince many that such phenomenon probably don’t exist. I remain more open-minded than that. I’ve had some “spooky” personal experiences over the years and heard allegorical accounts from family members and friends to give me pause for thought. A certain amount of that is to be expected either way, but IMO it’s at a level that makes me wonder (I acknowledge this is going to convince no one! :slight_smile: ).

There are, though, more general public accounts of this nature, e.g. the accounts of iddhis that are supposed to have been developed and exhibited by Dipa Ma (something she herself didn’t deny, e.g. in the interview transcript here). Again, allegorical, but there seem to have been quite a lot of witness to these powers (in living memory also with many still alive). It’s understandable if some people opt to be convinced by such accounts. I’m not fully convinced, but such things put me in a place where I don’t rule such things out.

I think there’s plenty room for various approaches and beliefs. That’s going to be inevitable if Buddhism takes solid root in the West. Anyway, I liked the robust and passionate argument made in the OP (even if at this point I have yet to gain faith in rebirth and some related doctrines).

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If I may be so bold, I’d say that you can call yourself a Buddhist and remain agnostic about rebirth.

The Buddha of the EBTs wasn’t a Catholic priest, there is no Nicene Creed of Dhamma or statement of faith, rather we take refuge in the liberative power of the three jewels, not particular ontological views.

Respectable teachers such as Thanissaro and Analayo have pointed out again and again that it is not necessary to have the belief in rebirth to engage with the practice, as long as one does not have some strong dogmatic view of annihilationism or eternalism. For example:

“I definitely do not think that it is necessary to believe in rebirth in order to engage fully in the practice up until the attainment of stream entry. That is really not necessary and if you look at Kalama sutta it gives you that sense of engaging in practice and letting certain aspects of the teaching be without immediately taking them on board…
Simply let be as it is and take that part that is meaningful” - Analayo

from lecture 02 at http://agamaresearch.ddbc.edu.tw/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lectures2013.htm

And this is coming from a well respected scholar with a deep understanding of the EBTs.

Like I said before, the importance of the rebirth view is how it affects one’s intentions, for example one’s sense of samvega or ethical sense. In this sense then, it really doesn’t matter how one sees rebirth as long as it has the proper effect on our intention. I know this is a bit controversial but imagine that someone starting out on the path has a view of rebirth that is more metaphorical, psychological or phenomenological (for example, in the modernist sense that Ajahn Buddhadasa uses it). As long as this helps establish in them a strong sense of samvega and ethical attentiveness, I really cannot see how this is much different in its effect than believing in ‘literal’ rebirth.

I think ultimately it depends on the individual person how they relate to the teaching of rebirth (like all Buddhist teachings). Some teachings and practices resonate with some personalities stronger than with others. For some folks the teaching of rebirth as an ontological reality is absolutely central with how they relate to the Dhamma. But for others, this is not so. The same could be said for example with meditation practices, some resonate more with anapanasati, but others prefer other avenues. This is totally fine and I think speaks to the flexibility of the Dhamma. I think it is a disservice to this flexibility and hence strength of the teachings to make them rigid and say that one must hold them in a certain way and in that way only.

So yea, call yourself a Buddhist. I have done so for years while holding varying views on rebirth. What matters though was that I took refuge in the triple gem.

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Thank you. :pray:

While I’m not especially proud of it, I have to admit to being a bit upset by Ajahn’s post, but your comments here make me quite glad for it all and offer something thoroughly positive and soothing to reflect on.

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For a Buddhist monk to present his view, his understanding on the core & fundamental of the Buddha’s teaching, the straightforward approach is far more appropriate (at least for me) than the “beating around the bush”. But then concerning tastes there can be no disputes.
Some may feel harshness and inflexibility in Ajahn’s writing, I don’t. Rather, I found it as a firm & assertive statement for his understanding of the Buddha’s teaching and this is necessary and even courageous. I had known monastics that would say or do things just to please the lays :roll_eyes:.

Like @rudite, I would like, again, use this opportunity to express my gratitude to “monks like Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn @Brahmali, Bhante @Sujato for not being silent on many so-called controversial topics, including rebirth”.
I consider myself fortunate to know these venerable monks, encouraged by their “liberal attitude” toward questioning and discussing, even on the sensitive subject, totally opposite to “real orthodox monks” that I’ve known or heard of.

I like the Sutta on simile of the snake that Ajahn Brhamali mentioned, in particular this:

“some misguided men learn the Dhamma—discourses, stanzas, expositions, verses, exclamations, sayings, birth stories, marvels, and answers to questions—but having learned the Dhamma, they do not examine the meaning of those teachings with wisdom. Not examining the meaning of those teachings with wisdom, they do not gain a reflective acceptance of them. Instead they learn the Dhamma only for the sake of criticising others and for winning in debates, and they do not experience the good for the sake of which they learned the Dhamma. Those teachings, being wrongly grasped by them, conduce to their harm and suffering for a long time.”

“When you do not understand the meaning of my statements, then ask either me about it or those bhikkhus who are wise.”

Since the Buddha is already Parinibbana , it would be useful if there is something one does not understand in the Buddha’s teaching, to go ask those “wise bhikkhus” instead of grasping it, interpreting it to one owns view and liking or even worst: spreading the wrong understanding to others.
I’m well aware of the fact that “those wise bhikkhus” may not be “omniscient", may not be perfect and lack of knowledge about certain aspects in life. After all the discussion panel on Sutta Central is created for us to do just that “discuss”. In a healthy discussion, if every one of us could focus mostly on the positive side of the writer, it will be beneficial for both sides, monastic and lay people alike.

Again, for rebirth, personally I think there’s plenty of scientific evidence out there but if you don’t want to believe it or keep on rejecting the evidence as “not enough”, no problem, at least please keep an open mind. Hopefully with the practice of the 8 Fold Path, one day we will see it for ourselves.

Anyway, if you had finished reading those essays from AB and BS, believe it or not, it’s too late now, “you’re doomed” :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: , a seed of right view has already planted in your consciousness and will be blossomed in your next life as a “believer in rebirth”. :rofl: :rofl::rofl: :joy: :upside_down_face::joy_cat: :innocent:

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That’s exactly my point. Current science can only conceive of , and therefore test, mundane aspects of the path.

Ajahn Brahmali is a smart, lovely and earnest guy, and I’ve been listening to the workshops he and Ajahn Sujato conducted lat year on early Buddhism. It’s great stuff. I’ve had conversations here with him before, and none of them have ever made me feel bad. As others have said, if I were in his shoes (or his bare feet, I guess) I would probably feel a similar obligation to faithfully present the traditional and earliest Buddhist teachings as they have been handed down.

It seems to me that there are all sorts of legitimate ways in which people can call themselves “Buddhist”. Many people are leading lives and following paths that are in some very significant way derived from the Buddha’s teaching. They sometimes disagree about which of those teachings are most important. Some are making their way with the assistance of others in one of the several venerable Buddhist religions and ancient traditions that have emerged out of those teachings. Others are taking a more idiosyncratic route.

I know I’m going to keep calling myself a “Buddhist.” It would be completely preposterous not to, since my life is thoroughly inundated by the effort to keep the Buddhist precepts, the practice of Buddhist systems of meditation, the reading of Buddhist texts, the reflection on Buddhist thought, and the effort to attain the nibbana the Buddha described. If I told a friend I was doing all of that stuff 24/7 but was not a Buddhist, he would laugh and say, “yeah, right!”

There is no Buddhist baptism. There is no place where they keep all the secret official membership certificates. There is no Ashokan pillar where they have carved the names of the true, authenticated and bona fide Buddhists. The Buddha’s last advice was to be your own refuge. The path to liberation leads through your heart, and nobody else can tell you exactly where it is and what’s on it.

Traditionalists, don’t let the secular Buddhists get you down; and secularists, don’t let the traditionalists get you down. Modernists, don’t let the pre-modernists get you down; and pre-modernists, don’t let the modernists get you down. Theravadins, don’t let the Mahayanists get you down; and Mahayanists, don’t let the Theravadins get you down. Theravadin EBTers, don’t let Theravadin abhidhammists get you down, and Theravadin abhidhammists, don’t let Theravadin EBTers get you down. Lay people, don’t let the monks get you down; and monks, don’t let the lay people get you down. Forest monks; don’t let the city monks get you down; and city monks, don’t let the forest monks get you down. Wanderers, don’t let the sedentaries get you down; and sedentaries, don’t let the wanderers get you down. Workaday Buddhists, don’t let the academic Buddhists get you down, and academic Buddhists, don’t let workaday Buddhists get you down.

There is a lot of boundary policing going on in the world right now: people attempting to insist on certain lines and shoving the undesirables onto the other side of it. We don’t need more of that stuff, really. But the good news in Buddhism is that, since it is ultimately an affair of the heart, you can’t really be shoved anywhere you don’t want to go.

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Good points. Though I have other reasons and, to be honest, didn’t give the entire story/context (mostly out of a reluctance to drag non-Buddhist stuff onto a Buddhist forum).

Once upon a time, someone (who was actually a fairly hard-core spiritual seeker) gave me the advice (paraphrasing Chogyam Trugpa I think) with words something along the lines of: investigate the various spiritual paths, pick one, learn it, and then find all the others in it. Didn’t quite work out that way for me, because there were finally two that I settled on and couldn’t choose between: Buddhism and a Christian “eternalist” (shock/horror :slight_smile: ) path: “A Course in Miracles”, which some have described as a kind of perenniallist Christian Vedanta (true to a degree). It was the most appealing and coherent path I found that worked under the basic assumption of a benign creator God (also shies away from ontology). I practice both (up to a point they are quite compatible), but it’s likely there will be a parting of ways with one or other eventually (there are definitely differences in the proposed end points). Obviously I don’t have full faith in either (“a servant cannot serve two masters” and all that), but those are the practice frameworks I work with.

So I’m not sure what to call myself really! :slight_smile: Buddhist or Christian? Kind of both and in some ways neither (though am open-minded on both routes/possibilities). But agnostic? Yes, definitely. This must sound all very idiosyncratic (and a bit confusing really), but has worked pretty well for me so far. I hope this dual practice will continue to improve my life and I am hoping I will eventually build up enough wisdom/insight/direct knowing to firmly choose between or resolve the incompatibilities.

I try hard not to drag any of my quasi-eternalist baggage :grinning: onto this forum (not really the place I think), but I’ve made an exception here to give a little context.

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I am not going to elaborate on this because it is not appropriate here and probably few will be very open to syncretism so I will just link you to something I read recently that echoes a perspective which might be helpful for you. It is an interview with the famed religious scholar Ninian Smart (who liked to call himself a “Buddhist-episcopalian”).

http://www.scottlondon.com/interviews/smart.html

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Cool! Nice article. And, yes, this is fairly off-topic for the forum (and most certainly this thread!).

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Beautifully put! :anjal:

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Oorah! Brahmali. It’s an irony that combat professionals understand the concept of “get it right the first time” much better than most people. Afterall one has to if his own life depends on it. It’s absolutely clear for 2 soldiers facing off each other on the battle field staring down the muzzle of their rifle, that when the bullet leaves the barrel, crosshair off only by a few milimeters is all it takes for the whole trajectory to be way off and the bullet will miss the target completely. Needless to say, those who “get it right the first time” will be the ones who can come home alive and on their own two feet. It’s not that much different when it comes to the Dhamma. At the opposite end of the front line is Mara’s army, the undisputed best and most ruthless army in history. Be absolutely certain that every single evil guy on that side have already trained a gun right at you. If Right View wass mentioned first in the 8NP, then it gotta be the crosshair on one’s Dhamma rifle. He’d better train hard and aim right the first time. You wouldn’t want the guy on the opposite end be the first one to “get it right”. And don’t bet on a second chance, that you’ll be able to come back in human form to fight another battle another time. At least not for a long long time!

Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one’s right view. And what is wrong view? ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is wrong view." ~~ MN 117 ~~

Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb." ~~ MN 57 ~~

Bhikkhus, it is more likely that the blind turtle would put his neck in the plough share and yoke the eye to the hole to see light rather than the fool once fallen to hell would gain humanity." ~~ MN 129 ~~

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But there are many other suttas where insight into DO, at least in its 12-step formula, is not mentioned as a requirement for stream entry. If we look at the Kimsuka Sutta we see that purification of view, i.e. stream-entry, can occur through various different means, e.g. sensory contact, the aggregates, the elements, etc.

A certain monk went to another monk and, on arrival, said to him, “To what extent, my friend, is a monk’s vision said to be well-purified?”

“When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the six media of sensory contact, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified.”

The first monk, dissatisfied with the other monk’s answer to his question, went to still another monk and, on arrival, said to him, “To what extent, my friend, is a monk’s vision said to be well-purified?”

“When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the five clinging-aggregates, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified.”

The first monk, dissatisfied with this monk’s answer to his question, went to still another monk and, on arrival, said to him, “To what extent, my friend, is a monk’s vision said to be well-purified?”

“When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the four great elements [earth, water, wind, & fire], my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified.”

The first monk, dissatisfied with this monk’s answer to his question, went to still another monk and, on arrival, said to him, “To what extent, my friend, is a monk’s vision said to be well-purified?”

“When a monk discerns, as it actually is, that whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified.”

The first monk, dissatisfied with this monk’s answer to his question, then went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he [reported to the Blessed One his conversations with the other monks. The Blessed One then said:]

"In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered.

So I don’t see that 12-step DO is a requirement.

As an example of a contemplation of DO that can lead to liberating wisdom without reference to craving being the fuel for further existence and birth, or any other steps in DO except contact and feeling see SN 12.62:

“Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases.’ Bhikkhus, in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, a pleasant feeling arises. With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as pleasant, the corresponding feeling—the pleasant feeling that arose in dependence on that contact to be experienced as pleasant—ceases and subsides. In dependence on a contact to be experienced as painful, a painful feeling arises. With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as painful, the corresponding feeling—the painful feeling that arose in dependence on that contact to be experienced as painful—ceases and subsides. In dependence on a contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling arises. With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, the corresponding feeling—the neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling that arose in dependence on that contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant—ceases and subsides.

“Bhikkhus, just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and friction of two fire-sticks, but with the separation and laying aside of the sticks the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant…acontact to be experienced as painful…a contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling arises…. With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, the corresponding feeling … ceases and subsides.

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards contact, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’”

12-step DO only gains its full relevance in the brahminical context where Joanna Jurewicz has shown that it is a parody of vedic cosmogeny. To assume that every stream-enterer requires this framework I think oversteps.

If we also look at many other suttas where people enter the stream on hearing a discourse, there often doesn’t seem to be any notion that they’ve gained special insight into rebirth, but rather that they’ve understand a specific formulation of the dhamma that allows them to understand how Nibbāna is attained via the cessation of craving. I’d say that idappaccayatā is more important to understand than any specific formulation of it. Because idappaccayatā is applicable in all experience. Whereas ignorance from a past life is only relevant if you’ve mastered the fourth jhana enough to recollect past lives. I would also like to refer to Ven Anālayo’s Perspectives on Satipatthāna, Ch 7: Contemplation of Feelings, Sub-Ch: Dependent Arising. That is where I got some of the material and he explains things better than I can.

I think the idea that actual knowledge of the existence of rebirth is acquired by all stream-enterers is making an inference where one is not justified. I don’t even think arahants have knowledge of rebirth unless they’ve recollected their past lives. For example:

“Is there a method of exposition, bhikkhus, by means of which a bhikkhu—apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it — can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being’?”

“Venerable sir, our teachings are rooted in the Blessed One, guided by the Blessed One, take recourse in the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would clear up the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from him, the bhikkhus will remember it.”

“Then listen and attend closely, bhikkhus, I will speak.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“There is a method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu—apart from faith … apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it—can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth … there is no more for this state of being.’ And what is that method of exposition? Here, bhikkhus, having seen a form with the eye, if there is lust, hatred, or delusion internally, a bhikkhu understands: ‘There is lust, hatred, or delusion internally’; or, if there is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally, he understands: ‘There is no lust, hatred, or delusion internally.’ Since this is so, are these things to be understood by faith, or by personal preference, or by oral tradition, or by reasoned reflection, or by acceptance of a view after pondering it?”

“No, venerable sir.”

“Aren’t these things to be understood by seeing them with wisdom?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“This, bhikkhus, is the method of exposition by means of which a bhikkhu can declare final knowledge thus: ‘Destroyed is birth … there is no more for this state of being.’ Is There a Method?

In the sutta directly above, it seems that the arahant can declare final knowledge, not because they have special access to the underlying mechanisms of rebirth, but because they have well developed introspection and can see that greed, hate, and delusion are destroyed. This is something that ordinary people can develop to perfection, and is visible here-and-now, immediately apparent.

I could make a better argument, but I’d have to go tracking down dozens and dozens of suttas on stream-entry and other related things. It would turn into a book which I don’t have time for. But anyway, to be convinced that actual verification of rebirth occurs at stream entry, I think I need a little more evidence than simple reference to 12-step DO, since not all stream-enters purify their view on the basis of it.

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Can you point to any suttas that at least touch on this? Explaining that there is this “gandhabba” stuff, that migrates between lives? (if I understood that correctly)

Depending on which dictionary you ask. This is the closest to how I would define:

The process of being reincarnated or born again.

but there are more unexpected definitions:

a new period of growth of something, or a time when something that was popular in the past becomes popular again

But the idea that repeats itself, is that the new thing that is being reborn is something that was there (lived) before, there is continuation. As for the Suttas that I read, I haven’t seen them defining what gets “transmitted”, what survives death.

Eloquent, and most definitely written with heartfelt sincerity. :slight_smile:

But, ultimately, what matters are answers to the most basic questions: Why do beings come to be and suffer ? What is the final escape from all this suffering ?

The Buddha gives plain answers like:

I am just a fool at this point. But it would be foolhardy to perpetuate whatever notions and views I have acquired over the years because the stakes are high - aging and diseases become very real at some point.

The Buddha’s serene tolerance was not a bland acceptance of all the views of the world. He spent his entire life critiquing almost everything. Lay people, ordained monks, wanderers from other sects - all of their ways, views and ideas were examined by him, followed by a now-familiar line: In the line of the Noble Ones, it’s rather different…

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Well no, unfortunately it’s not satisfactory, but it seems it will have to stay that way. If “five aggregates” are the thing that is finished at arahant’s death that is not normally finished for other unenlightened beings… well I can’t agree. Form does not continue, that’s obvious to anyone. According to MN 38 it’s not consciousness that continues.

What then? If nothing continues, then it’s not rebirth that is meant here, at least not according to standard meaning given to the word by dictionaries.

Rebirth and the Gandhabba, by Analayo

The present article examines the concept of rebirth in early Buddhist canonical discourses preserved in the Pāli Nikāyas and the Chinese Āgamas from a set of related angles, after which it explores the implications of the gandhabba as one of the three conditions for conception to take place.

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All conditioned things are impermanent - therefore, nothing remains in the same state from one moment to the next. Nothing static crosses over from one life to the next, it is just an ongoing process - exactly as this life we are currently living is an ongoing process, with nothing static persisting across time. But consider how we don’t usually wake up in the morning and think “Ah I’m a whole new person today - I have nothing whatsoever to do with the person that was alive yesterday” (In other words, the process of identification with the continuity of aggregates across time does not depend on there being any kind of enduring essence within that process)

Just my humble understanding - I hope this makes sense.

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@DKervick

“As others have said, if I were in his shoes (or his bare feet, I guess) I would probably feel a similar obligation to faithfully present the traditional and earliest Buddhist teachings as they have been handed down.”

Me too! Sometime if we just imagine ourselves in other people position, our “fault finding” tendency will probably be lessen.

In this thread so far I find everyone is very courteous and reasonable. That remind me of the saying “you can have different view but still can be friend and keep a harmonious atmosphere in the discussion panel”. Thank you to Ajahn Brahmali for creating the thread and everyone to contribute to a pleasant discussion.

This might be a little off the topic, but I’ve noticed, people nowadays are so sensitive. They seem unable to handle anything that is not to their liking, their feeling get hurt so easily from a mere inoffensive statement. I remember reading article where in some US universities, teachers now have to warn the students in advance regarding course reading material that might be trigger adverse reaction or deem offensive to the students “fragile mental states”.
Could that be because of the parent’s overprotective of their child from the day they were born? Always defending them instead of showing them to be grateful? Kids and lots of people today are just overly sensitive and seem to take any different view as a personal attack. But, even if it is a personal attack, I think it would be good to teach our kids to get real, that’s life, you will get praise and you will get criticism. Don’t expect others to speak the way you want them to speak. A little harsh or a little flowery, what’s a big deal? That way kids will grow up more strong and more open and this also might be the solution for some form of depression, anxiety so common among the young people nowadays. I think kids in particular and people in general expect too much, from themselves, from others, from society. And that is the cause for a lot of problems.

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Thank you!

Yes, and the two do not overlap perfectly. But when we have two different approaches to understanding reality, we should expect them to give the same results whenever they overlap.

I mostly agree with this.

You clearly have a point, but I think the most important consequence of accepting rebirth is not living ethically but a turning away from samsāric existence.

As you point out, there are many good reasons for living ethically, and this is also quite clear from the EBTs. Kamma is one such reason. Yet one of the interesting things about kamma is that it is not always about rebirth: the EBTs speak of kamma that ripens in this very life. It seems to me that this is the most interesting of all types of kamma, since we can all experience it for ourselves. Act on bad intentions, and you just feel bad about yourself. Act on good intentions and you feel, “Yay, I am living well.” In my experience almost everyone has these kinds of experiences. And as you keep on acting and accumulating good kamma., you can literally feel it happen over time. You are elevating your mind, your consciousness. You feel lighter, purer, kinder - in short happier. A simple belief in rebirth may have an effect as well, but it really depends on your level of faith and the degree to which you have internalised it.

What really matters about rebirth - assuming it is true, which I obviously do - is that it changes your outlook on the nature of existence. Seeing rebirth makes existence utterly unbearable and the problem of making an end to it extremely urgent. It is in this sense that it has a powerful effect in propelling us forward on the eightfold path. I think it is no coincidence that most of the monastics I know who did not believe in rebirth ended up disrobing. The sense of urgency is just not there. Why commit so fully if the problem is not so great? An acceptance of rebirth - and especially a carefully consideration of its consequences - should have a powerful impact on one’s values and the very direction of one’s life.

Moreover, if we think of rebirth and kamma in a more personal way, this too, I believe, will have an effect on our outlook and values. What we are doing by living well is creating wholesome mental qualities: happiness, peace, compassion, understanding. If rebirth is true and the mind continues after death, then these are qualities we take with us. All else has to go. Does it not make sense, then, to invest time and energy into the qualities mind, so that we reap benefits for a long time into the future? It changes the weight we give to this life versus long-term samsāric existence. It makes us far more interested in how we live rather than what we achieve. This is a more practical way of looking at rebirth and kamma. So again, it is not simply about intellectual assent to a doctrine, but a deep internalising of the consequences of these teachings. It is when we reflect on these teachings over long periods of time that their true significance is unearthed. If we reject them, that period of reflection is unlikely to ever take place.

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