Reflecting on Rebirth: An Understanding That Can Go Beyond Faith and Theory

Dear @daverupa

I had a quick look at your book and it looks amazing. I’m truly glad you brought it to all of our attentions.

However, I don’t think it quite fits in with this:

As I already said elsewhere, the OP openly assumes an acceptance - not a questioning or any reference to modern paradigms - of rebirth into one’s world view. This is a place for a more personal sharing.

I feel your book does connect with this topic, but I think it deserves a thread of its own - which can have a link to this one if you wish. I’m happy to do it when I get back from work later or you can do it yourself.

With much metta and apologies for any offense caused :heartpulse: :anjal: :heartpulse:


EDIT:

I know @Linda also posted a link to a book but I feel it fits better here and has an intimate connection with some of the other posts. However, Linda, I know you also expressed some reservations about whether your book fits into the OP…so, I’d like to invite you to also create another thread with a link to this topic. :anjal: I hope that’s okay…I feel it would be fairer to @daverupa.

With many thanks and metta to you both. :slight_smile:

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Sorry about that.

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This is a great thread.

One way I find useful to make rebirth closer to home, more a matter of experience rather than of faith or theory, seems to be commonly overlooked. Although few of us have episodic memories from before this life (memories of specific events or conditions), all of us have procedural memories from before this life (learned patterned behaviors). This is the kind of memory little Dhammaruwan demonstrated particularly vividly.

In fact, any of us should be able to remember patterned behaviors already established our earliest lives that were often quite unique to us, and parents of young children have a lot of opportunity to observe the same thing in them. These include how we go about investigating and cognizing our world, how we organize or arrange things in our rooms, how we respond to anger or frustration, how we interact with others, how we manipulate others to get what we want. It may even include specific phobias or sources of interest or joy. Young children, like adults, seem to have a repertoire of scripts at the earliest age, each of which they act out rather predictably under the right conditions. And each child has a different repertoire. Some of these scripts are so complex or clever that it is hard to imagine that the children composed or learned them in this life. Yet there they are. Children seem to be acting out age-old behaviors.

I like to think of our behavioral patterns as forming a karmic landscape deeply rut­ted by an ox cart whose wheels are disposed to falling into the deepest ruts and, when they do so, those ruts be­come ever deeper. In principle, our ox cart is free to steer toward open ground, beginning a new rut, or to choose the rut least travelled on (which might well make all the difference), or simply to follow the established routes. The landscape is thereby old kamma, whereas any choice to follow or to break out of the established ruts is called new kamma, which continu­ally reshapes the karmic landscape. The point is that we begin life with a deeply rooted landscape and the sense that someone was here long before we had a chance to travel over the landscape.

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Hi @anon29387788, thank for your thoughtfulness in being fair. Maybe it’s better to just delete my post as I really didn’t bring it up as a topic of discussion. The book isn’t even out yet so not sure what I would create a discussion thread about. Perhaps if someone wants to open a discussion recommending books on rebirth & other related topics, it could fit there. It’s not really my interest (i.e. I mean debate/discussion re rebirth, though I’ve enjoyed perusing this thread and hearing people’s experiences). I only mentioned the book here since there were posts about Dhammaruwan and the whole last chapter of the book is a study of his chanting, but it’s nice to keep the topic about personal reflections/experiences only.

So I’m happy to just delete the post; should I do that? If anyone wants to mention Ven Anālayo’s book in another thread on rebirth/books or whatever, feel free. Anyway, it won’t even be available until the spring, so maybe that would be an appropriate time for a discussion with those interested.

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Oh, a whole chapter deconstructing and studying Dhammaruwan’s chanting? That’s even more interesting and tempting to buy it. :wink: Thanks (seriously, I might buy it solely to read this chapter). :slight_smile:

No worries about the post (as well as this one). They were both interesting and useful. :slight_smile:

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P.S. I just opened @samseva’s other discussion and it seems the book would fit there, so I will move it there.

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Thanks for your thoughtful and beautifully useful reflection Cintita! :anjal:

Thanks Linda, that’s the perfect spot for it!

@daverupa…I’ll move your post to a new thread now :slight_smile:

No trouble. :pray:t6:

Hi all
A great quality of mind is our ability to focus in and also to expand out.

Does anyone ever reflect on the whole mire of suffering that has gone before us. That what we are now is the rebirth of so many that have gone before and how with our actions now we are contributing and shaping what comes after.

Walk gently.

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That’s a lovely reflection Peter and a beautiful reminder. Thank you. :pray:t6:

You’ve reminded me of how I’ve learned to view (at least on a reflective/intellectual level) Anatta-Dependent Origination as being a process that can be viewed over 3 lives: the current one, the previous one and the next one.

And this of course links in with this

These two essays are my favourite teachings on these two central topics.

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If I was told “you must believe in rebirth in order to be a good Buddhist” I wouldn’t have taken refuge.

My direct, personal experience of rebirth is as a intellectual concept.
I have other direct, personal experiences in the path.

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I agree and also think this is important.

While ‘Buddhist’ is the word we use to identify ourselves, in modern times, it does have different meanings. Would saying that practitioners of Vajrayana and Mahāyāna are only partly Buddhist be correct? Saying that they are partly following the teachings of the Buddha—since some teachings in Vajrayana and Mahāyāna were not taught by the Buddha—would be correct. However, in modern times, the word ‘Buddhist’ doesn’t have the meaning of “follower of the teachings of the Buddha”, but more “follower of teachings from any division of the modern religion called Buddhism.”

When I hear Vajrayana and Mahāyāna teachings, and I feel resistance and slight aversion to those teachings when some might be slightly questionable, I think over that, even though these practitioners would possibly benefit more in studying the actual teachings that the Buddha gave (maybe not though), they still do partake in spiritual endeavours and put forth effort in meditating and improving their minds. This is a big plus and already 100 times better than what most are doing.

According to the modern meaning of the word ‘Buddhist’, whether or not some people believe in rebirth or that some follow Vajrayana or Mahāyāna teachings, I still view them as Buddhists—not followers of the original scriptures, but still Buddhists. :slight_smile:

EDIT: I thought I was in the ‘Rebirth, Rebirth, Rebirth’ thread. :sweat_smile: I will leave it like this, since the modern meanings of the words ‘Buddhist’ and ‘Buddhism’ are important—and viewing our Mahāyāna and Vajrayana friends in a good light also being important. :slight_smile:

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That’s an interesting view point. I’ve never thought of my intellectual concepts as coming under the catergory of “direct” or “personal” experiences. I suppose in the sense that I am thinking them, then I suppose in that sense, I could conceive of them as being “personal” at least… For me, “direct” always has a “felt” or “emotional” component, something I perceive as being almost tactile. But perhaps this is different for you? Which is of course a beautiful thing - I can’t quite verablise why, but I feel it would be a terrible thing somehow if we were all “wired” the same way.

I value your experience as being unique, worthwhile, yours and therefore, beautiful. I thank you very much for sharing here. :anjal:

Quite right too.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Feynman :slight_smile:

Dear Feynman,

Having been very busy the last day or so, I made the mistake of replying to you too quickly in an effort to “catch up” on anything missed on the forum.

I had such a feeling of “wrongness” about my response and felt I hadn’t represented my feelings adequately nor communicated my respect for your experiences any where near well enough…

Anyway, I have subsequently had a chance to unwind a bit and have gone back and edited my reply to you. So if you read the original reply, please do allow it to be washed :ocean: away from your memory (not that it was dreadfully evil or anything :slight_smile: ) as it didn’t quite serve my intentions! And this post is just to draw your attention to the better version.

With many thanks again, and much metta, :pray:t6::heartpulse:

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That is my sense of it as well. There are rational thought(s) and a affective/emotional ‘background’ that arises in response. My direct, personal experience of rebirth is like to the experience of thinking of other (mostly) intellectual concepts.

Most of what I think of as the core teachings of the EBT make so much sense of my experience. Other aspects such as the descriptions of the janas I can related to because I’ve had glimpses and quick “tastes” of those experiences. Then when I get to rebirth it’s like the vision of the dharma flies into a void. fades to black. There isn’t much there in my prior experience that relates to it.
It’s like “inviting” a bell – with each new strike invites a clear, ringing sound that seems to sing of enlightenment – and then the bell is removed and the mallet strikes the ground.

I liken it to hearing other persons stories of vivid out-of-body-exeriences (OOBE). I never had one so it’s a matter more of intellectual interest rather than one of shared experience.

The famous high functioning autistic Dr. Temple Grandin describes her best designs as very visual. So much so that I get the sense she can almost “feel” what it would be like to hold the paper with the detailed design in her hands. Or the tactile experience of moving through the space the designs describe.

Sometimes I get almost 3 dimensional visualizations of theories or software designs. That is common with engineers and software people – careers which tend to attract those with Auspergers/high functioning autistic brains.

It’s likely we are not wired the same way in the sense of Neurotypical.

Perhaps I can help with the verbalization. One reason it would be terrible is that no individual is so smart as to be %100 right. Or so smart as to be %100 wrong. Science is said to be “self correcting”. But that is not automatic. The self correction is made possible when different scientists are guided and influenced by different paradigms.

In a similar fashion I believe that when different “wiring” is combined with right speech the dharma is made more compassionate, wise and skillful; more likely to lead to the end of suffering.

When done well – in the way I imagine the Buddha envisioned it – this activity we engage in, this written exchange is a noble one.

@anon29387788 thank you for your kind words. Fortunately I missed your original reply. :hushed: (I want an emoji for irony! ) tee hee

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:cherry_blossom: and thank you for yours :pray:t6: :cherry_blossom:

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Great thread (the accounts of various rebirth experiences were very interesting)! I think it was brave by Matt to kick off those accounts! :slight_smile: Presumably a reasonable percentage of monastics do have experiences of this nature, but due to Vinaya rules aren’t permitted to recount them, so it was nice to see some accounts of different types from some experienced lay practitioners. :anjal:

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Hi Kay,
Thank you for great thread.
The idea of rebirth is terrifying to me. In my early life as a child and teenager I have experienced allot of violence of different kind. Today I understand that I might done harm to those people in my previous life and this was result of my karma. I don’t feel like victim any more I found way to have peace with it. But I have enormous fear to experience that again and honestly it’s one of my biggest motivation to practice. I have absolute confidence in Buddha’s teachings and enormous gratitude to him for leaving to us great recipe for Liberation.
With metta, :blush:

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I’ve experienced this myself- it is not always the case, but when it is, it is good to know the kamma which lead to the kammic reaction. It makes sense of something which can seem senseless. I also get much relief from knowing it is being ‘worked through’. This is not to excuse bad things being done to me - not at all. Those require stern action. Some things, when they keep repeatedly happening ie.- there is a a repetitive pattern to it, I can find a connection in past kamma. It also makes me think twice, now, about doing negative acts so it helps me practice. Dr. Ian Stevenson also came across some karmic events in his research, I believe.

with metta

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