Reincarnation

That’s usually translated as “stream-enterer” (one who has entered the stream of enlightenment). There are stages of enlightenment (usually a system of 4 is used) in the Buddhist discourses (suttas). A arahant (or arahat) is someone who is completely 100% enlightened (will never be reborn in any form ever again). Stream-entry is the initial stage of enlightenment; the guarantee described with that attainment in the suttas is no more than 7 more rebirths in the sense sphere realms (as a human or in the lower deva realms) and never lower than that (as a preta or animal etc.). There are also the intermediate stages of once-returner and non-returner. That’s the standard Theravada doctrine anyway. In the suttas, that seemed to be a pretty realistic goal for a layperson (though sometimes laypeople became once-returners and occasionally non-returners).

There are quite a few concepts and ideas to get familiar when fairly new to Buddhism. I found the free online book Word of the Buddha by Nyanatiloka Mahathera to be really nice (its structure follows the core Buddhist doctrine: the four noble truths, fleshing these truths out, and with part four going into the noble eightfold path in a lot of detail). The book itself is less than 100 pages so, as well as being pretty readable, it’s not too long either.

The Access to Insight website is also IMO really nice. It might be worth poking about in the section A Self-guided Tour of the Buddha’s Teachings. Lots to explore in there (and lots of suttas organized according to subject, study guides, and other material on the site in general). The Dhamma section of the self-guided tour uses as organizational structure commonly used by the Buddha himself in his teaching: the “gradual training”: generosity, virtue, heavenly realms, drawbacks, renunciation and finishing on the four noble truths.

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In my limited experience practicing Buddhism it seems to me that Westerners are more preoccupied with the concept of reincarnation than are Asian Buddhists. I practice at a Thai Wat in the United States attended mostly by people born in Southeast Asia and their first-generation U.S.-born children. The Wat has Thai monks in residence. Since I have been attending the Wat I have very heard very little discussion of reincarnation. Of course, the Dhamma talks are in Thai and I don’t speak Thai, so perhaps I have missed out when reincarnation is mentioned. But there are also Dhamma talks in English for Americans who attend weekly meditation lessons and in none of those sessions has reincarnation been a topic. I also receive individual lessons from the abbot in return for me helping him practice his English, and the only talks we have had about reincarnation mostly have to do with creating wholesome kamma in this lifetime. When I was in Thailand last February, none of the monks or laypeople I spoke with had much to say about reincarnation.

By contrast, it seems to me that Westerners who have started practicing Buddhism as adults have much more interest in next-life reincarnation than the Asian Buddhists I have encountered. I’m not sure why that is, and perhaps it is peculiar to my individual situation. Others may have different experiences.

By the way, the English word “reincarnation” obviously derives from the Latin carn- meaning flesh, as in, to become flesh again. I understand that many Buddhists take a literal approach to reincarnation, arguing that it literally means re-birth. But from a linguistic point of view, living organisms exist in a continual cycle of renewing their fleshly existence, e.g., snakes shedding and regenerating their skin. I surmise that the monks at the Wat I attend don’t say much about next-life re-birth because they are more concerned with teaching the laypeople about the kamma they generate in this life and how it affects their “reincarnation” from one moment to the next.

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This is very interesting. I’ll try to read the book you mentioned as soon as possible.

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I think it is because in the west we’ve had the Christian mentality of either hell or heaven and no other option. We always wonder why God would condemn people for simply not believing in something that happened 2000 years ago. Learning about reincarnation seems to liberate the soul from the judgmentalness and worry that follows from that belief.

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Thanks, but I don’t see the relevance of this to the discussion.

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I’ve observed that a lot of western Buddhists have a problem with rebirth, which is perhaps not surprising. In any case, there are numerous references in the suttas to how beings are reborn in different realms according to their actions, ie kamma. I can’t recall any suttas which describe the rebirth of anger, or whatever.

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I dont doubt this at all. What i was saying is we get an idea through inference from the present how we identify with each newly occurring khandas.

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Hi SolitaryBuddhist

I understand most Buddhists would use the term ‘rebirth’ and Hindus ‘reincarnation’. From my study and practice, in the EBTs (First Four Nikayas), the Buddha did not use a term that can be accurately translated as either of those and claiming the Buddha taught ‘rebirth’ is only based on interpretation, a very popular one.

It is very clear the Buddha taught many births (not lives) that belong to one person. This is attested in the story of his enlightenment and the three super knowledges (Te-vijjaa) that he developed. The first being recollection of his past births (not lives). See my analysis of the relevant text: (PDF) Accurate translations of Catu-(rūpa)-jhāna and Te-vijjā passages | Joe Smith - Academia.edu

There is evidence that he had a psychological meaning for this, that is, birth (and death) of ego identity/identity view, over and over in this very life. See my compilation of his redefinitions of terms he used: (PDF) 20120701 The Noble Language - Thesis Extract.pdf | Joe Smith - Academia.edu

My understanding of the six realms, in this very life, is here: (PDF) the six realms | Joe Smith - Academia.edu

If you changed all occurrences of the word ‘life’ to ‘birth’ in your question, without applying the meaning of ‘birth’ I believe the Buddha had, then it would seem useless, or just playing with words.

I believe Nibbana/Nirvarna is not possible to attain in this life, without seeing all his teachings as applying to this very life.

best wishes

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Though in DO we have aging and death arising in dependence upon birth - the whole process. And of course in the suttas birth, aging and death are clearly described in biological terms, rather than in psychological terms.

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Don’t worry, you’re not alone! To be honest I still don’t really get the Buddhist model of rebirth, and there is very little in the suttas about the mechanics of it. I can understand the Hindu model of a soul which is repeatedly reincarnated, but of course in Buddhism we don’t have a soul, and it’s not at all clear what is “reborn”. :slightly_smiling_face:

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This is very interesting! Thank you.

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Lovely! I think I have a can of XXXX cooling in the dunny.:yum:

https://bswa.org/teaching/kamma-and-rebirth-by-ajahn-brahm/

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Thanks, Mat. I was just trying to find that when you posted it. :smiley:

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What if there is really nothing to get in that sense? The Buddha could have been not an engineer, but a hacker!

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Yes, in the standard and what I believe is the Hinduised DO, which goes hand in hand with the blindly accepted standard (and Hinduised) Four Noble Truths, which I have written about elsewhere.

We have the quote: ‘who sees Dhamma, sees DO’ and vice versa, and the Path is part of Dhamma. The standard DO does not seem to show a gradual path of practice, rather mainly a philosophy. What has been called ‘the Transcendent DO’ (e.g. by Bhikkhu Buddhadasa) does match the general pattern of the Path revealed by applying the advice the Buddha gave to maintain his teaching: ‘gather, recite and compare teachings’. See DN29 and as well demonstrated by Dr Rod Bucknell in 1984+.

In my other linked document, about the Noble Language, I present the quotes showing the Buddha certainly redefined ‘death’ to be psychological ‘in his Dhamma and Vinaya’ - not ‘sometimes’. If birth and death are psychological, then aging would be too. Of course, a worldly system will interpret them physically and that would eventually creep into the EBTs, I suggested that happened before the third council and it was most likely taken across to Christianity in the quote about Nickodemus and Jesus.

best wishes

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Hi @rudite and @TheSolitaryBuddhist

The one suttas that I am aware of that deals with this issue is AN 4.191. Here is an extract from Bhante Sujato’s translation:

Take another mendicant who memorizes the teaching—statements, songs, discussions, verses, inspired sayings, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and analyses. They’ve followed those teachings by ear, reinforced them by recitation, examined them by the mind, and well comprehended them theoretically. But they die unmindful and are reborn in one of the orders of gods. … But a being who has been reborn spontaneously reminds another such being: ‘Do you remember, good sir? Do you remember where we used to live the spiritual life?’ He says: ‘I remember, good sir, I remember!’ Memory comes up slowly, but then that being quickly reaches distinction. Suppose there were two friends who had played together in the sand. Some time or other they’d meet. And one friend would say to the other: ‘Do you remember this, friend? Do you remember that, friend?’ They’d say: ‘I remember, friend, I remember!’ In the same way, take another mendicant who memorizes the teaching … But they die unmindful and are reborn in one of the orders of gods. … Memory comes up slowly, but then that being quickly reaches distinction.

I think it is reasonable to extrapolate from this that the greater your knowledge and understanding of the Dhamma the greater will be your ability to recall it in your next life, regardless of where you get reborn.

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The link between Christianity and Buddhism sounds like a conspiracy theory - just like an authors’ creation. When people start to rely on ‘mysterious’ as well as ‘lost’ facts that are now revealed - some might be true, but unlikely to be accurate as often they highlight the author and demands a following of people to accept it and support the teacher, and spread their teachings.

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Bhante, do you think this is the case of those ‘who merely learns by rote’ (padaparamo) as per AN4.133?

:anjal:

thanks for sharing your disbelief

There have been well researched links established between Buddhist texts/stories and Christian ones, e.g. Barlaam and Josaphat - Wikipedia. We are told from Buddhist history that missionaries were sent to Greece about 300 years before Christ. I have written elsewhere on the probable textual and social influence into the birth areas of Christianity of the Buddha’s teaching and Buddhist practice. (PDF) Buddhism and Christianity | Joe Smith - Academia.edu

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