Revisiting Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ

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84

I think this will bring us closer to advaita Vedanta which said that pure eternal consciousness do exist

This quote from mahasi sayadaw is similar to your view

Manual of insight page 464-466

Where water, earth, fire, and air do not gain a footing:
It is from here, that the streams [of phenomena] turn back,
Here that the round [of the defilements, kamma, and its
result] no longer revolves.
There, name-and-form ceases.
Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous,
That’s where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul—
There “name-and-form” [mental and physical phenomena] are
wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.

The statement that nibbāna is “all-luminous” in this passage means that
it is completely cleansed of all defilements. Similar metaphors are used in
such expressions as “the light of wisdom” (paññā-āloka), “the luster of wis-
dom” (paññā-obhāsa), and “the torch of wisdom” (paññāpajjota). It is in
this same sense that the Buddha said, “Bhikkhus, the mind is luminous.”
The sense here is that nibbāna is always luminous. The mind and wisdom,
which possess an innate luminosity, can be soiled by defiling phenomena.
Nibbāna, however, which is the cessation of defilements or conditioned
phenomena, can never be connected with defiling phenomena. Therefore
there is no way that any of these phenomena can soil or defile nibbāna,
just as the sky can never be painted. As a result it is said that “nibbāna is
all-luminous.” To be straightforward, the meaning of the commentary and
subcommentary is only that nibbāna is absolutely not connected to the
defilements, or is completely cleansed of them.
So one should not misinterpret this statement to mean that nibbāna is
literally shining like the sun, moon, or stars, and that one sees this lumi-
nosity by means of path knowledge and fruition knowledge. This kind ofinterpretation would negate previous statement that nibbāna is signless,
would be inconsistent with its unique “signless” manifestation (animitta-
paccupaṭṭhāna), and would contradict Venerable Nāgasena’s answer to
King Milinda’s question about the nature of nibbāna. In fact this kind
of literal interpretation would be in opposition to all the Pāḷi texts and
commentaries that say that there is no materiality in nibbāna. In any event
the cessation of potential defilements and aggregates is not something
that is luminous and bright. If it were, the Pāḷi texts and commentaries
could easily have said that “nibbāna is luminous and bright.” Otherwise
they would not explain it with difficult names such as “destruction of lust”
(rāgakkhayo), “the peaceful ending of all conditioned phenomena” (sab-
basaṅkhārasamatho), “nonarising” (anuppādo), and so on, which are taken
to be opposites of conditioned phenomena. One should reflect deeply
about this!

That’s where earth, water, fire, and air find no footing,
There both long and short, small and great, fair and foul—
There “name-and-form” [mental and physical phenomena] are
wholly destroyed.
With the cessation of consciousness this is all destroyed.

These lines point out nibbāna, or cessation. The last line points out the
cause of this cessation. “Consciousness” here refers to both the death con-
sciousness (cuticitta) and the volitional mind (abhisaṅkhāraviññāṇa) at
the time of parinibbāna. All presently existing conditioned phenomena
come to an end due to the destruction of death consciousness at the time
of parinibbāna, and because there is no volitional mind that can produce
results, new phenomena do not arise but cease to exist. Thus, with the ces-
sation of these two kinds of consciousness, all conditioned phenomena
cease. This is like the cessation of the emission of light from an oil lamp
whose oil and wick have been completely consumed.
In summary:

Nissesa saṅkhāra vivekalakkhaṇaṃ
sabhala saṅkhata vidhura sabhāvaṃ
nibbāna metaṃ sugatana desitaṃ
jhāneyya saṅkhāranirodha
mattakaṃ.

The Buddha described nibbāna as having the characteristic
of being secluded from conditioned phenomena and as being
their complete opposite. To the wise, nibbāna is simply known
as the utter cessation of conditioned phenomena.

85

Nibbana we can understand with two meanings:

  1. When a being experiences the fading away (extinguishing) of the taint potential. In this sense nibbana has elements, namely nibbana-dhattu: aloba, adosa, amoha. A Sotapanna is said to be realizing nibbana for the first time in this sense, because there are mental fetters (samyojana) that are shed (nirodha): sakkhayaditthi, silabataparamasa & vicikiccha. In this sense, a noble disciple is called contemplating nibbana when he contemplates the extinguished taints of mind.

  2. Nibbana in the sense that there are no conditions for the arising of mental and also physical formations (sankhara). This is achieved after an arahant dies (parinibbana).

Nibbana must be interpreted in the two ways above. Not in an ontological way.

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86

Many people misunderstand it in this way.

It is therefore important to emphasise the word analogical because ‘consciousness’ and ‘seeing’ are per definition impermanent, ‘consciousness’ is in no way eternal, constant or permanent.

These words are definitively tied to existence and existence only.

Eternalist view of permanent consciousness might be said to be analogical but then one should get to the bottom of this analogical sense to see whether it is a class of consciousness or really an analogy.

To do this one needs to examine exactly in whatever terms it is explained.

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87

I think first and foremost we have to treat it as a word and draw out it’s meaning & designation, synonyms and whatnot. This is how it’s done in the texts;

“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”

“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”

When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”

“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”

Therefore when someone asks ‘what is Nibbana?’, we should merely state it’s designation.

Having grasped it’s designation and semantic property we can proceed to analyze it’s applied use and draw out the meaning & referent in this or that circumstance.

This particular designation will evidently have qualified usages.

Example;

Reverend, they say that ‘extinguishment is visible in this very life’.

“‘Sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānaṁ, sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānan’ti, āvuso, vuccati.

In what way did the Buddha say extinguishment is visible in this very life?”

Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā”ti?

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.

“Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi …pe… paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is visible in this very life in a qualified sense. …

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.

Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṁ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṁ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.

To this extent the Buddha said that extinguishment is visible in this very life in a definitive sense.”

Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, sandiṭṭhikaṁ nibbānaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti.

There are furthermore several instances of peculiar use and compound terms that need to be analyzed and reconciled such as ‘nibbana with residue’, ‘nibbana without residue’, ‘nibbananirodha’, 'nibbana [as pleasure where nothing is felt] and ‘parinibbana’.

Furthermore the semantic properties of ‘removal’ overlap with the semantic properties of ‘destruction’, the semantic properties of ‘extinguishment’ overlap with the semantic properties of ‘cessation’ and this is reflected in the text terminology and needs to be fully appreciated.

Patisambhidamagga makes a clear distinction between nibbananirodha as giving up and nibbananirodha as entering into.

It is quite complicated to say the least but it’s certainly not incomprehensible.

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88

In this thread I share my thoughts on these seemingly ever-elusive words, viññāṇa anidassana. I don’t think it refers to nibbāna at all, but to the state of boundless consciousness, sometimes called “the sixth jhāna”. I mean, it’s even specifically called ‘boundless’ (ananta)… what more do you want?! :wink: (Turns out there is quite a bit more that points to this.)

As to viññāṇa appatiṭṭha, see here. These words are indeed about final nibbāna. However, the particular translation “unestablished consciousness” is quite misleading. Better is “consciousness is not established”, as Ven. Sujato has it. Because it refers not to the existence, but to the cessation of consciousness. The few suttas that have the words place them in the sequence of Dependent Cessation exactly where we normally find the cessation of consciousness. (E.g. SN12.39) I further translate it as “consciousness is not planted”, because I take it to refer to the simile of the seed of consciousness, which for normal people gets “established” (i.e. planted) in a next realm at rebirth (AN3.76), but doesn’t get planted for enlightened ones (and so then ceases, because nāmarupa ceases).

So in both cases the Pali can easily be interpreted in ways that align with all other suttas. Some, however, interpret them in a “unique way” (to literally quote The Island: an anthology of the Buddha’s teachings on nibbana o ). With all reverence to those who do, but to me that’s not following the Buddha’s teaching in the Parinibbāna Sutta (DN16), when he tells us to compare questionable teachings to the rest of the suttas. (In this case, to see how questionable “consciousnesses” can be seen in light of all others.)

Those technicalities aside, please know that translations are always shaped by the translator’s view. Here are some alternative translations, on whether there may be any “nibbāna consciousness”:

The group (khandha) of consciousness includes any kind of consciousness whatsoever—whether past, present, or future; to do with the inside or outside world; coarse or subtle; lowly or sublime; here or elsewhere. (MN109, me)

Any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of consciousness. (MN109, Ven. Sujato)

Note also that this phrase is used for all five aggregates. :slightly_smiling_face: So when it is translated in a way that seems to allow for a consciousness outside of time and so forth (like Ven. Thanissaro’s translation), you also have to allow for a similar timeless form, feeling, perception, and sankhāra that’s outside of time! Obviously, that is not what the statement is intended to say.

The phrase simply means that ‘consciousness’ includes all types of consciousness (just like ‘form’ means any kind of form, and so forth). So that there is no type of consciousness—whether real or imagined—that’s outside of the aggregate.

Consciousness that is permanent, constant, eternal, unchanging, that the wise in the world agree upon not to exist, and I also say it does not exist. (SN22.94, me)

Consciousness that is permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable. This is what the astute agree on as not existing, which I too say does not exist. (SN22.94, Ven. Sujato)

Since no sutta says anything remotely like “PS. there is a conciousness outside of the aggregates” we can just take this statement at face value.

Also note that “permanent, everlasting, eternal, and imperishable” are simply synonyms, so if we argued for a type consciousness that isn’t eternal, it would mean that that consciousness then is impermanent, not lasting, and perishable.

OK. That’s enough about that. :joy:

BTW, @inb4dead, thanks for letting us know you changed your view. That’s a courageous thing to do!

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89

I think it’s a trifle and merely a matter of translating this one word the meaning of which is imo made rather apparent by the verse itself.

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