Right livelihood in investing

No need to be dismissive (“investors”) and vulgar (suckers).

It is not possible, governments can only make it illegal and hard to get in and out (by shutting down exchanges), but the network would continue to operate as long as internet is alive and 2 persons run a client. It is censure-proof.

Not anymore it would seem, it is too transparent for criminals (Monero or Dash are better options for them now). Much of the activity right now seems to be as a store of value.
Speaking of illegal activity let’s not forget that all major banks are immersed in it, just check the headlines of the last few years: money-laundering (HSBC and the drug cartels), market manipulation (LIBOR, gold markets etc)… a few small fines and they can continue as if nothing happened, it’s quite disgusting to witness.
Internet is also used by criminals and for all kind of unwholesome activities, using the same reasoning we should also ban it then…? Maybe, we’d have more time to meditate at least :grin:

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thanks for the feedback. I had got a similar impression from a video (in which Griffin participated) but I wasn’t sure.

Btw thanks for the link to Antonopoulos video - I had heard of him but it’s a first time I watch one of his videos: he’s definitely an impressive speaker! Also according to a tweet I’ve seen he doesn’t seem to have greatly profited economically from Bitcoin - which is surprising but ties in to what you wrote yesterday about many people being in it for the tech and ideology.

Anyway, I still haven’t got a clue of what will happen but it’s definitely a fascinating subject and I have now a more nuanced picture of the ethical aspects related to it. :smiley:

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Well, you can only store value using bitcoin so long as their price doesn’t fall. Since the actual utility of bitcoin as a medium of exchange and negotiable financial instrument seems very limited, I suspect the current price will prove to be a result of ponzi speculation and irrational exuberance. I am not a professional investment counselor, but based on what I know about bitcoin I would encourage people to stay far away from it, and avoid risking their wealth on it.

Thanks, interesting point - though I guess bond funds are out in this case :wink: (I have just discovered on wiki though that they have something called Sukuk instead).
Btw I feel quite sympathetic to the Islamic world at present as I only just come back from an excellent stay in Morocco :smiley: (where I attended a conference on renewable energies - it was then that I discovered that Bitcoin mining consumes roughly the same amount of power as the whole of Morocco; which was part of the reason for my OP)

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Whatever method is used:

’The wise and virtuous shine like a blazing fire.
He who acquires his wealth in harmless ways [Right Livelihood]
like to a bee that honey gathers,
riches mount up for him
like ant hill’s rapid growth [no get rich quick schemes]
With wealth acquired this way,
a layman fit for household life,
in portions four divides his wealth:
thus will he friendship win.
One portion for his wants he uses, [this, for his own and the needs of family, friends, tax, monks]
two portions on his business spends, [investment back into source of making money]
the fourth for times of need he keeps [savings- there can be overlap here]
DN31

With metta

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Very timely thread from my point of view. I have recently re-organised my affairs to have a ‘passive’ income stream, so that I can immerse my self more completely in practice.

One of the strategies is to have an income stream from shares investment. I say investment quite deliberately rather than shares trading.

Often people forget that there are 2 sources of wealth generation from the stock market. The ‘old fashioned’ one is about investing in a company and receiving dividends. This is about making a connection with a company as Aj Sujato said, as well as being supportive of the long term benefits that the company brings to the economy and society. This is about believing in and supporting a company, it’s products and even its employees. The second is about shares and commodities trading. This is about financial speculation, and making a profit by shifting money around companies or “financial products” with the intention to have short term trading profits by trading shares frequently. This approach has nothing to do with specific companies, it just focus on individual share price movements accross the entire share market.

Personally, from a purely ethical perspective, I have long felt that there are many negative outcomes by the trading and financial products focus on the share market (eg. the last USA driven financial crisis).

So that was the first part of the decision for me. The second is to appoint a trusted and known person to manage it as required. Because it only requires monitoring and occasional adjustments, it has a completely different dynamic.

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Ultimately , the aims is to make more money and get maximum profit and in this your greeds get enlarge and your self caught in the situation where you are going against the noble path !

Thanks for your input. I agree with you that it’s much better to invest rather than trade.
If I understand correctly you invest in stocks of individual companies instead of ETFs tracking the broad market (as dharmacorps and the bogleheads he mentioned do)?
Is the person you appointed selecting these companies or do you do that?

I’m very fortunate in that a relative is knowledgeable about these things, he advised me initially, I agreed, and handed it over. It also involves some big companies of blue chip stocks that passed my ethical muster. It all comes down to personal value judgements in the end. I would have liked to exclusively support companies that I really admire, but it is about balancing risk of performance. The other thing is to diversify, so that not all ones eggs are in one basket and the risk is spread out.

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That’s a fair point, but for me it’s not really about maximal profit; it’s much more about not having one’s savings eroded thus losing money for you or your family (which is what happens if you simply leave money in the bank because of inflation - and in some cases other factors like currency risk if you are e.g. a migrant and your savings are in a different currency from that of the place where you’ll retire).

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If only that we possible. :frowning:

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That assumes a uniform motivation of greed for all people investing for their future which I think is ham-fisted. People who want to protect and grown their wealth are praised in the Suttas, whereas those who are looking to get rich quick (like via gambling) are spoken of as dangerous. There is a significant difference between investing long term in the stock market for retirement and gambling type activity.

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It is not really for enthusiasts in the dhamma .
That is for lays whom are much attracted to worldly dhamma and not keen interest on true dhamma .
And for most of the peoples , greeds just hidden behind the motivation .

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Well throughout most of my life I have personally paid very little attention to money, and ironically I have become more conscious about money now as I have begun to practice more.
I remember going to a Monastery in the Ajahn Chah tradition in Europe; the nun leading the retreat thought that Eckhart Tolle was enlightened; when I asked her ‘what about the millions he is amassing and the fees he charges for his teaching?’ the answer was ‘well, the poor guy has got to live, he’s not a monastic’. Although I don’t fully agree with this answer, it certainly challenged many of my assumptions.
I was introduced to Bitcoin by someone who had been a monk for many years - he is now a lay person and makes his living by trading/investing in Bitcoin and network marketing.
I now think that in my previous attitude towards money there was some arrogance actually - I used to think of it as something lowly and that I had more lofty things to do.
If you want to practice more as a lay person (as @mpac mentioned above), of course you need to find a responsible way to have an income through your investments to support yourself (and perhap your family).
If you want to ordain, it seems more responsible to make sure you provide for your family to the best of your ability before doing so, rather than dismiss these material things as worldly dhamma.

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Maybe you mistood me , money is all important in this world ! I am saying ,
The only concern is many will swept away by greeds in the process of it .

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Maybe you mistood me , money is all important in this world ! I am saying ,
The only concern is many will swept away by greeds in the process of it .
The more we engage in this the more we distant from dhamma living .
But then this is very difficult for everyone .

May I suggest you look for peer to peer lending platforms in your country.

In these you are able to lend directly to specific companies or group of companies, and even people, of your choice and earn interest rates higher than the ones a bank would give you for long term deposits.

Also, the borrowers benefit from a cost of debt lower than the one banks would charge them.

:anjal:

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Thanks. The link you provide is quite interesting. I had begun to look at this and I liked the idea - perhaps the only disturbing thing is that the rate of interest they charge borrowers goes up as their credit rating decreases, which makes sense from the point of view of the risk/reward for the lender but it means that the more borrowers are in a difficult position, the higher the interests they’ll have to pay. Anyway like you say they’ll still be better off than borrowing from the bank.

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P2P lending is interesting-- I have looked at Prosper specifically, but like stef, I found the loan rates kind of high (I’m a business owner so I have taken out more than a few loans). These are loans taken out of desperation. That said they mostly do get repaid I guess.

My main concern is I don’t think they are proven to be good investments yet. The economy has been quite good throughout the existence and popularity of p2p lending. The test will be if the economy tanks, will they continue to be good investments or will people default more on the loans?

There is always real estate I guess too as an investment, right?

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JP Sears’ last video was on bitcoin, which I thought was quite funny! :wink:
https://youtu.be/g-zIbVEjVpQ

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