Sabhāvanirutti - Magadhi

Following Pali text is found in Patisambhidamagga Atthakatha.
It is roughly translated as follows.

Is there any basis for this statement in EBT.
Or
Is it not the intended meaning of the commentary.

"it is said, “Beings grasp at words.” For example, in childhood, parents lay their children down on a bed or a couch and engage in various activities while speaking to them. The children, understanding those words as spoken by their parents, repeat those activities. As time passes, they come to understand all words. If a child hears the mother’s words first, he will speak the mother’s language. If he hears the father’s words first, he will speak the father’s language. If he does not hear both, he will speak the language of Magadha.

Similarly, even one who has been reborn in a distant village or a great forest, without anyone else speaking to him, will speak the language of Magadha according to his own disposition."

Taṃ pana nayidaṃ paṭisambhidākiccanti paṭikkhipitvā “Bhāsaṃ nāma sattā uggaṇhantī”ti vatvā idaṃ kathitaṃ – mātāpitaro hi daharakāle kumārake mañce vā pīṭhe vā nipajjāpetvā taṃ taṃ kathayamānā tāni tāni kiccāni karonti, dārakā tesaṃ taṃ taṃ bhāsaṃ vavatthāpenti “Iminā idaṃ vuttaṃ, iminā idaṃ vutta”nti. Gacchante gacchante kāle sabbampi bhāsaṃ jānanti. Mātā damiḷī, pitā andhako. Tesaṃ jātadārako sace mātu kathaṃ paṭhamaṃ suṇāti ¶, damiḷabhāsaṃ bhāsissati. Sace pitu kathaṃ paṭhamaṃ suṇāti, andhakabhāsaṃ bhāsissati. Ubhinnampi pana kathaṃ asuṇanto māgadhikabhāsaṃ bhāsissati.
Yopi agāmake mahāaraññe nibbatto, tattha añño kathento nāma natthi, sopi attano dhammatāya vacanaṃ samuṭṭhāpento māgadhikabhāsameva bhāsissati.>>

This is a kind of Buddhist fundamentalism, closely related to the nationalism we see on the rise in a large number of countries. Nothing good comes out of these silly claims, except a false sense of pride and false sense of allegiance to the Dhamma. It is delusion leading to further delusion, eventually issuing in war.

Or have I missed the real significance of this?

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Yes. Bhante Sujato already wrote about this issue here:

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No, there is not. The EBTs see language as a convention that enables communication.

That is the intended meaning of the commentary.

The translation misses some interesting details, however. It specifies that the mother is Tamil, while the father is from Andhaka, i.e. Andhra Pradesh. So the child might either speak Tamil or “Andhaka”. I’m not really sure what the dialect of Andha was, but it’s interesting that it was seen as different than Magadhan.

Also another detail, it doesn’t say “in a distant village”, but “where there is no village” (agāmake), perhaps thinking of cases of children raised by wild animals.

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Thank you very much Bhante. :pray::pray::pray:

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Dear bhante, is there any clear way of proving “children raised by wild animals” never speak Magadhi?

Additionally, according to the commentarial position, even the first humans of this eon spoke in Magadhi.

“Sā māgadhī mūlabhāsā, narā yāyādikappikā;
Brahmāno cassutālāpā, sambuddhā cāpi bhāsare”

The first human beings born in this plane from brahma plane (according to the Agganna Sutta) had to speak some language. What could be that language?

Given that all the Indo-European languages are descending from an Indian Language (according to the modern researches), doesn’t this position seem hard to be refuted?

Where is there evidence for this?

I have difficulty believing that this is a serious question, but FWIW, feral children typically struggle to learn any language at all, so no, they don’t speak Magadhi.

I mean, I’m sure you know this, but for others who may be reading this thread, it’s obviously not true.

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Yes, thank you, it is not true.
It is important that this misinformation is not spread.

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Bhante, please excuse my weak questioning skills.

Those feral children had already spent some years with parents and were already exposed to a language for some years.

What I wanted to know was “two children who had never exposed to any language” as mentioned in the Commentary.

Again please excuse my mistake and there the word ‘Indian’ should be replaced with ‘proto’.

What made me surprised is your keenness for protecting the world from misinformation, specially in a place like this.

We can’t do this. It’s unethical. Universal language is an old question in linguistics that fascinated people in the 19th and first half of the 20th century. Noam Chomsky’s generative grammar is probably the most famous product of this line of thinking, but I do believe he stepped away from it and moved toward sociolinguistics.

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That’s why we say the notion “root language is Magadhi” is hard to refute.

Of course it’s hard to refute, idiocy always is.

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Who’s we? You and the aliens?

There’s a big difference between the faithful and the unfaithful (in any religion). The faithful only reject what can be proven as incorrect. The unfaithful don’t have boundaries.

The aliens who came to this human plane at the beginning of this eon (mentioned in Agganna sutta).

They had to speak in a certain language, hadn’t they?

I don’t think so. Probably they were empaths.

No, your talking about idiots again.

The idiots, as you say, in any religion, are the ones who believe anything they are told without thinking, who allow themselves to be manipulated by politicians and fundamentalists, who unquestioningly accept absurdities while demanding unequivical proofs of those who have struggled to free themselves from ignorance.

The real faitful are faithful to the buddhas call to learning, wisdom and the eradication of ignorance, not the weaponosation of ignorance in the futhurance of xenophobic cults.

Good luck with your journey.

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Still they had had to talk verbally one day (at least after some generations), since they were the ones who evolved into modern people. That language, whatever it might be, is the root language.

Ok, let’s suppose they are idiots. Then who are the ones who don’t believe anything they are told without thinking?

People who follow Kalama Sutta.

That language, whatever it might be, is the root language.

Who says there has to have been one? As far as I know homo sapiens didn’t emerge as a single species out of Africa many millions of years ago.