Sanna v. Vinnana

If connecting to jhanas then sanna would be the range of thoughts, a perception , in meaning that you are identified with the perception, when you are not your identity anymore, the perception grow into infinite too like in arupas

So the vinnana is the limited identity we put on objects, while sanna is the range of the identity

When we reached arupas the sanna would be boundless and vinnana stop recognising things, only the source which has no definition on objects.

And when the we reached the end of arupas, the vinnana is seen completely and disenchanted , we no longer take on perception based on our old identity, a chance to be free from clinging through jhanas . Vimutti🙏🏻

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Hi,
What is the source? Do you mean the sankhara nidhana?

Yes , source of the perception, boundless , if it takes any identification it will be limited and delusion can only takes form in limitation of forms.

In the paticcasammupada the source is also the sankhara, it has no form , but what can be seen is just the result : mental, body, speech. Nobody ever seen sankhara because it can not be identified. Like we cannot see energy, only the result.

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Love what you say here. To me too, lately as I begin to sharpen my understanding, and am exposed more to Chinese translations (thanks to Sutta Central) I find (how do I say this?) it is as if the Chinese monks incorporated the Dhammic meanings into the translation, not the technical understanding of a word only. This is not a criticism of Pali translations, but it is really helpful to have the two translations side by side.
Most significantly it helped me with my understanding of Origination SN 47.42. Have you ever looked at the Chinese translation of SN 47.42. I am very curious of your understanding there. Hope this is not off topic.
Regards

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I have spent most of my time in the last few years meditating on the red and blue kasinas.

It is odd that the Buddha would say “it is called perception because he perceives red, he perceives blue” etc.

What, I’ve found is that the musculature of the body is very much caught up in the “intrigue” of blue and red.

The more I relax my muscles, the more I see the kasina red and blue exiting my ligatures.

This is much to my delight and pleasure. To have the kasinas of blue and red leave my body has been an absolute GOD SEND to my prevailing lower back pains.

I am now in a position to say that anyone who is capable of opening their throat (blue) chakra is also the recipient of a very nice deep muscle relaxation of the lower back. It has made my life as a 40 year old man absolutely delightful. I feel as if I could do the same things I could in my mid 20’s!

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There is a parallel, SA 609. The important bits are the same as the Pali in this case; but it’s more verbose with stock passages for each of the four abodes of mindfulness.

One of the benefits of comparing parallels is that it helps detect possible textual corruptions, but it goes both ways. Sometimes the Chinese is obscure and the Pali or Sanskrit is illuminating. So, I can’t say I have a strong bias either way.

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Thanks, this is true, with some suttas the Pali translation is clearer. in some cases however, esp when it comes to bits containing info on Dependent origination, I find the Chinese version to be more lucid. In a discussion on DO, on another website, one person brought in the Chinese version, that threw a clearer light on how suffering begins at contact. My comment was based on a limited number of suttas.
To give you another example I found the Chinese version of MN 133, clearer. Likewise the Chinese translation of SN 47.42 made more sense to me. The Pali version came across as a riddle, at the beginning.
You wrote

“The Chinese version is more verbose”

Perhaps it is the verbosity that helped me there. Of course how I got the Chinese was by feeding it into the Google translator…not the best way of doing things. But what is one gonna do when one is an idiot in Chinese. Do you mind translating it for me, pl? Will be grateful to you for the rest of my life.

It is nice to know Chinese, esp. when it comes to Dhamma studies. This I have come to believe of late.
Regards.

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cdpatton has a website with all his translation work, and he posts updates of all work here, in the linked thread. Have a look for the suttas you want translated in there :slight_smile: Happy hunting :smiley:

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And (shameless, off topic plug)… if y’all find value in the arduous translation work @cdpatton is doing, please …

Support Charles Patton in his translation work!

:slightly_smiling_face:

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"Now, I’ll explain the formation (集) of the four abodes of mindfulness and their disappearance (沒). Listen closely, and well consider it.

"What’s the formation of the four abodes of mindfulness and their disappearance? Food forms, and then the body forms. Food ceases (滅), and then the body ceases. Thus is the abode of observing as the body forms, the abode of observing as the body ceases, and the abode of observing as the body forms and ceases. This, then, is the abode without support that is forever without grasping onto the world.

"Thus, contact forms, and then feeling forms. Contact ceases, and then feeling disappears. Thus is the abode of observing feeling as it forms … (as above) …

"Name-and-form forms, and then the mind forms. Name-and-form ceases, and then the mind disappears. This is the abode of observing the mind as it forms … (as above) …

"Recollection forms, and then dharmas form. Recollection ceases, and then dharmas disappear. This is the abode of observing dharmas as they form … (as above) …

“This is the formation of the four abodes of mindfulness and their disappearance.”

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@cdpatton Your translation is fabulous. I had finished a translation of SN 46.42 myself in my own backward way. When I become desperate I use all the different translations available on Sutta central and work them backwards, meaning back to English from say Portuguese. It has worked for me in the past, at least in the case of Sn 4.11.
But here, your translation is just perfection…
It reveals a great deal that the rest of the samyutta fails to reveal, this one sutta.
You wrote to begin with

“Now, I’ll explain the formation (集) of the four abodes of mindfulness and their disappearance (沒). Listen closely, and well consider it”

Once you mentioned that a translator has to take into account the Chinese characters in the translation. I found this to be fascinating. Does the differences in character enable an improved meaning in the translation. If so I conclude, the Chinese alphabet gives the Chinese, an edge over the other translators who are limited by the limitations of their alphabet? am I saying it right?
For instance “disappearance (沒)” can be denoted by another letter too? but the translator selected this particular (沒) If he or she selected another possible letter how would it have affected the translation? If I am getting too technical just ignore me. I am just curious.
The sutta ends so beautifully.

“This is the formation of the four abodes of mindfulness and their disappearance.”

Thank you ever so much.

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Thank you Viveka, I shall go directly to his website in the future.
Apologise for my question, that was off topic.

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No worries at all :slight_smile: Just pointing you to a wonderful resource :slight_smile: Enjoy!

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So what is sañjānāti? I think saññā and viññāṇa are terms that describe the activities of citta, right?

I just want to say thank you to you :pray:

I don’t think the mastery of this particular dialectic is necessary in order to attain the right view, since it is more philosophical problem than Dhamma subject, nevertheless who is interested …(Bold text isn’t in the original)

Saññā and viññāna (perception and consciousness) may be differentiated as follows. Saññā (defined in Anguttara VI,vi,9 <A.iii,413>) is the quality or percept itself (e.g. blue), whereas viññāna (q.v) is the presence or consciousness of the quality or percept—or, more strictly, of the thing exhibiting the quality or percept (i.e. of nāmarūpa). (A quality, it may be noted, is unchanged whether it is present or absent—blue is blue whether seen or imagined --, and the word saññā is used both of five-base experience and of mental experience.)

It would be as wrong to say ‘a feeling is perceived’ as it would ‘a percept is felt’ (which mix up saññā and vedanā); but it is quite in order to say ‘a feeling, a percept, (that is, a felt thing, a perceived thing) is cognized’, which simply means that a feeling or a percept is present (as, indeed, they both are in all experience—see Majjhima v,3 <M.i,293>[15]). Strictly speaking, then, what is cognized is nāmarūpa, whereas what is perceived (or felt) is saññā (or vedanā), i.e. only nāma. This distinction can be shown grammatically. Vijānāti, to cognize, is active voice in sense (taking an objective accusative): consciousness cognizes a phenomenon (nāmarūpa); consciousness is always consciousness of something. Sañjānāti, to perceive, (or vediyati, to feel) is middle voice in sense (taking a cognate accusative): perception perceives [a percept] (or feeling feels [a feeling]). Thus we should say ‘a blue thing (= a blueness), a painful thing (= a pain), is cognized’, but ‘blue is perceived’ and ‘pain is felt’. (In the Suttas generally, due allowance is to be made for the elasticity in the common usage of words. But in certain passages, and also in one’s finer thinking, stricter definition may be required.)

At Dīgha i,9 <D.i,185>, Potthapāda asks the Buddha whether perception arises before knowledge, or knowledge before perception, or both together. The Buddha gives the following answer: Saññā kho Potthapāda pathamam uppajjati, pacchā ñānam; saññ’uppādā ca pana ñān’uppādo hoti. So evam pajānāti, Idapaccayā kira me ñānam udapādí ti. (‘Perception, Potthapāda, arises first, knowledge afterwards; but with arising of perception there is arising of knowledge. One understands thus: ‘With this as condition, indeed, knowledge arose in me.’’) Saññā thus precedes ñāna, not only temporally but also structurally (or logically). Perception, that is to say, is structurally simpler than knowledge; and though perception comes first in time, it does not cease (see CITTA) in order that knowledge can arise. [a] However many stories there are to a house, the ground floor is built first; but it is not then removed to make way for the rest. (The case of vitakkavicārā and vācā—A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPĀDA §5—is parallel.)

The temptation must be resisted (into which, however, the Visuddhimagga [Ch. XIV] falls) to understand viññāna, in the primitive context of the khandhā, as a more elaborate version of saññā, thus approximating it to ñāna. But, whereas there is always consciousness when there is perception (see above), there is not always knowledge (which is preceded by perception). The difference between viññāna and saññā is in kind, not in degree. (In looser contexts, however,—e.g. Majjhima v,7 <M.i,317>—viññāna does tend to mean ‘knowing’, but not in opposition to saññā. In Majjhima xv,1 <M.iii,259-60>[16] & xiv,8 <227-8>[17] viññāna occurs in both senses, where the second is the complex consciousness of reflexion, i.e. the presence of a known phenomenon—of an example of a universal, that is to say.)

Footnotes: (…)

Thank you! However, if it is true that saññā only perceives nāma, why did the Buddha and Sāriputta (right?) use color as an example? Why don’t they take a nāma phenomenon to explain and make things easier to understand? And there is also rūpasaññā…

It is very likely I don’t understand something, I have no great skills regarding phenomenal philosophy but as far as I see it you haven’t understood the very beginning of the text:

Saññā (defined in Anguttara VI,vi,9 <A.iii,413>) is the quality or percept itself (e.g. blue), whereas viññāna (q.v) is the presence or consciousness of the quality or percept—or, more strictly, of the thing exhibiting the quality or percept (i.e. of nāmarūpa).

But I may be wrong thinking that I understand what Venerable says, and that you haven’t understood him.
But I am quite certain about that the topic itself isn’t very important in understanding of Dhamma, and even more certain that I am not interested in it. There are, or at least there should be skillful students of phenomenology either here or on the other Dhamma forum. Perhaps they could clarify your doubts.

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As I understand, in this quote:

Strictly speaking, then, what is cognized is nāmarūpa , whereas what is perceived (or felt ) is saññā (or vedanā ), i.e. only nāma .

“i.e. only nāma” does not refer to what is only perceived by saññā, but to what is only saññā itself: “i.e. only nāma” = “saññā is only nāma”.
So:

  • the visual experience itself is rupa;
  • the fact of the presence of that visual experience is viññāna;
  • the quality of perceiving that visual experience as blue is saññā;
  • saññā itself as a quality of perception is just nama.
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Yes, I understand. Thank you Knigarian and Sasha_A. And although I did not agree with that bhikkhu’s understanding, through this discussion, I also found my own understanding. Thank you again :pray:

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