what do you mean by, this.
That, relatively speaking, daily life mindfulness is more external in application (always involving the outside world to some extent) and mindfulness in meditation is usually more internal (can even be purely internal with no reference at all to the external world). Not “absolute” in the sense of there being a hard absolute boundary between the two in which never the twain shall meet (or that mind is ignored).
Daily life mindfulness indicated in SN47.2 is, in practice, not “more external in application”. It is awareness of both physical behaviours and their mental activities (such as feelings, mental states) in daily life. One cannot be awareness of mental activities without bodily postures and movements (including sleeping, keeping silence). Daily life mindfulness indicated in SN47.2 is mindfulness meditation.
Sure, as you say, daily mindfulness meditation is as described in SN47.2. However, the point of mine you quoted wasn’t meant as a point on mindfulness meditation per se. I meant “more external in application” of sampajāno, which was what I thought we were talking about (a bit of a side discussion to the main point of the thread), and sampajāno is also described as present in the more internal context of higher jhanas or sitting satipatthana meditation. When I’ve been referring to more internal or external application contexts, I’ve been specifically meaning sampajāno (if that hasn’t been clear).
It seems not unreasonable to me to say that, for example, third jhana is a more internal context for sampajāno than daily life mindfulness meditation. That has really been my only point in terms of this internal/external distinction.
I know what you meant. But, sampajāno is in fact not “more external in application”; e.g. the mentioned SN47.2 on sampajāno, which is awareness of both physical behaviours and their mental activities in daily life.
“… the more internal context of higher jhanas”? Which sutta (s) you refer to? It is certainly not found in SN47.2
As for “sitting satipatthana meditation”, it is also awareness of both bodily in- and out-breathing and mental activities (such as feelings, mental states), according to SN54.1 on ānāpānasati.
Third jhana is for sampajāno? Which sutta states that?
Do you also mean sampajāno is not about daily life mindfulness meditation?
OK, good. I know that, at least now, we are no longer getting our wires crossed.
No, it’s not an either-or situation. Just because I say something can also occur somewhere else doesn’t mean I’m saying it can’t occur in the original place.
I suppose there’s room for different interpretations there. It seems reasonable to me to say sitting satipatthana meditation is a more internal sampajāno context than daily life. It’s not just anapanasati either. Reference to sampajāno crops up in the satipatthana suttas too, e.g. in MN10 (here Sujato is translating sampajāno as aware, which I think is how he usually does it):
What four? It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of feelings—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of the mind—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. They meditate observing an aspect of principles—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world
Katame cattāro?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ;
vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ;
citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ;
dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā, vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
I suppose one could argue the toss to some extent on satipatthana meditation. Regarding your questions about jhana:
“… the more internal context of higher jhanas”? Which sutta (s) you refer to? It is certainly not found in SN47.2
…
Third jhana is for sampajāno? Which sutta states that?
It’s in the standard jhana pericope:
With the fading away as well of rapture, he dwells equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences happiness with the body; he enters and dwells in the third jhana of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
That occurs literally all over the place (SN53.1 is one example) with over hundred examples of the same wording in various places. Sampajāno crops up as a factor of specifically the third jhana in this.
I think I have got some kind of point here at least (even if you won’t concede elsewhere). Referring to third jhana as a more internal sampajāno context than daily life is surely reasonable?
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The content for the third jhana does not mean that the third jhana is sampajāno. E.g. the text also says " sato ca sampajāno ", which are sato and sampajāno, and also other contents shown in the text for the third jhana.
Not sure what is your reason here?
But isn’t it still explicitly listed as a factor? Just because it comes paired, as it usually does, with sati doesn’t mean it isn’t present. I don’t get your logic here.
The third and fourth establishments of mindfulness, at least, are more internally focused. If one is investigating the mind or dhammas like the five hindrances or seven enlightenment factors, isn’t that a more inward directed investigation?
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These are not “sitting satipatthana meditation”.
Why not? Can’t one sit down and devote a satipatthana meditation session primarily to investigating the mind (with sampajāno)?
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These are sati on body, feelings, mind, or dhammas
So is your point that satipatthana meditation can sometimes be more outward focused, e.g. in body mindfulness? Sure, that’s true, but daily life always has an outward observation component whereas IMO that’s not always the case for sitting satipatthana meditation.
Or is it that sati but not sampajāno is involved?
Or are you saying that satipatthana meditation has to always involve all four establishments? I’m not sure that’s implied by the suttas.
Anyway, regardless of that, I think my jhana point is the strongest one. Third jhana has to be even more internal than ordinary sitting satipatthana meditation.
I think we are beginning to go around in circles here anyway. I’m happy enough tabout how my recent post (#81) above sets out my case. I think any reasonably complete understanding of sampajāno has to be a synthesis of and take into account SN47.2 and similar suttas, SN47.35, its occurrences in descriptions of sitting meditation (anapanasati or satipatthana) and why it crops up in the third jhana pericope. I’m happy enough with how I described my case in that post and earlier posts.
Agree to disagree and leave it at that?
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“Listed as a factor” within the context does not suggest the factor is the only factor for the third jhana. E.g. the text also says " sato ca sampajāno ", which are sato and sampajāno, and also other contents shown in the text for the third jhana.
About sitting satipatthana meditation, it is awareness (sampajāna) of both bodily in- and out-breathing and mental activities (such as feelings, mental states), according to SN54.1 on ānāpānasati.
Remember that the sutta SN47.2 on sampajāno is awareness of both physical behaviours and their mental activities (such as feelings, mental states) in daily life (including sleeping, keeping silence …), not just “an external situational awareness aspect”.
Also, the third jhana is not sampajāno indicated in SN47.2 and SN47.35.
SN54.1 on ānāpānasati practice links various stages of concentrative meditation and liberation from the āsavas (see SN 54.8).
I still don’t really agree, but I’ve already made my points on sampajāno and you’ve set out your case too I think. Anyway, I’m going to leave it at that on the issue.
somebody translated some KN parts
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That site is a nice-looking work-in-progress to translate the Netti and Patisambhidamagga (with it looks like the greater part of the Netti translated at this point). I like how the Pali and English is interweaved. And it even contains a translation of the passage discussed earlier in the thread:
As said the Blessed One –
Therefore, here you monk, dwell contemplating body in the body – ardent, alert, mindful, having abandoned craving and displeasure in the world.
“Ardent” (ātāpī) is the faculty of effort;
“alert” (sampajāno) is the faculty of wisdom;
“mindful” (satimā) is the faculty of mindfulness;
“having abandoned craving and displeasure in the world” (vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassa) is the faculty of concentration.
Thanks for linking to this!