Secular Buddhists represents scientism

Exactly!

Skip the steps, can cause problems.

That’s part of the reason why it’s good to learn step by step, with a teacher who can guide. Don’t skip to ultimate truth, then dismiss conventional truth. End up, no real reason to practice if one denies rebirth.

Please provide the sutta in the EBTs that discuss conventional and ultimate truth so that we know what the Buddha meant by them. I have not been able to find them.

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They are concepts from commentaries/abhidhamma.

Conventional truth is whatever concept is concerned with the self.

Ultimate truth, depending on different traditions, can mean quite different things.

  1. Abhidhamma puts ultimate truths as the ultimate breaking down of the physical and mental elements and nibbana. Like the atoms. The goal is to be able to describe things without referring to a self. So speaking in ultimate truth can be very troublesome, as you saw my attempt above. Ultimate truth wise at this level can refer to dependent origination as the mechanism for rebirth without soul/self. And dependent cessation as the ending of rebirth for the arahants (or rather the 5 aggregates without clinging). And kamma as the volitional formations making kamma, the other aggregates receiving the results.

  2. Mahayana clarifies more that only emptiness is ultimate, even the elements analysed in abhidhamma are ultimately impermanent, suffering, not self. Thus without referent to self, one can use the heart sutra language. Sometimes translated to: in emptiness there is no death, no end of death etc. But TNH translation is more clear to conventional speech, death and end of death has no separate self existence.

  3. Personal experience of stream winners onwards, they personally see ultimate truths, so that’s why zen masters sometimes speak very illogical stuffs. Cannot easily make sense of them. They speak things like: there’s no difference between you and me, there’s no centre. There’s no self, everything is self.

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I think that thinking about rebirth is a distraction and causes confusion. What exactly endures to be reborn? How is it justice to punish that thing for wrong doing?

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In a nutshell, it was a later development.

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Absolutely. Not even that it is part of the EBT - this is just a plain fact - but also that it was the original Buddha’s Dhamma

I wouldn’t vouch for the words in the suttas, but yes, most probably he spoke about these recollections

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That is true.
Too much thinking and theorizing about kamma, rebirth, and the “soul/ self” can be distraction. The whole abhidharma mess was caused by this.

But on the other hand, not believing about rebirth and kamma, Buddha said that this is wrong view.
Wrong, simply because it is contrary to reality.

Buddhist are supposed to believe in this thing in general. Just know the basic principle and draw the conclusion for practice, and not thinking too much about the complexity.

Or try to get ability to remember past lives, if you really want to verify it.

For any traditional buddhist curriculum, one begin by rebirth and kamma. From there, the topic of precious and rare human life, death and impermanence, suffering of lower realm, suffering of higher realm, and dependent origination.

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  1. What is passed on in rebirth: kamma, ignorance, memories (access to memories is only for the few thousands of kids mentioned in the OP above), (from reading rebirth evidences) some personality, birthmarks corresponding to fatal wound location (if died a violent death), some may have language inherited (knows a real world language which had not been taught to them), skills (eg. Prodigy), traumas, fears (can cause nightmares), for some people, born with supernormal powers to see ghost, demons etc.

All of the above are not self or soul because they are impermanent. Even if we just posit a 1% change for each rebirth, ignoring the change within each life, going through countless rebirth in the past, there is nothing which endures throughout the whole samsara. Endures from one life to the next, yes, can have lots of things passed on.

  1. To think of kamma as punishment is a remnant of the God based worldview. Punishment is someone (God) punishing. Kamam is impersonal natural law. Like putting one’s hand into the fire, get burned. Is that punishment? Nope, we just say the person is foolish. Fire burns hands is just law of nature working on it’s own, without any agency behind it. Just as if a young person were to cut of her hand and then suffer not having hand for herself as an old lady, so too the same relationship holds from one life to the next. Well, not physically handicap same, but that kamma is seen within this life, it pases on to the next too. Conventionally, it’s easiest to see it as self do, self reap. Also from the suttas: I am the owner of my kamma, born of my kamma, heir to my kamma, whatever I shall do, for good or for ill, I will be the heir.

If you’re a newbie to Buddhism and we are in retreat setting, your background is materialistic atheism, then I would agree that learning how to meditate for you is more beneficial to be able to survive the meditation retreat.

But you’re not. If you identify as a Buddhist, it’s good to learn the full teachings of the Buddha. So that when you get into position of guiding the new buddhists around you, you can teach them right views and not mislead them with wrong views.

There’s practical consequences of not believing in kamma and rebirth. Morality wise, a lot of things can remain the same if one adopts humanism and materialistic doctrine vs kamma and rebirth. However, there are cases where there will be crucial difference.

  1. Euthanasia. Most people who don’t internalize kamma and rebirth doctrines might advocate for euthanasia, which is basically they are willing to kill animals who are fatally wounded, just to let them die faster. They don’t see the danger of adding bad kamma of killing to themselves. They don’t see that there’s still rebirth for the animal, so killing the animal, doesn’t really end it’s suffering. This topic becomes more dangerous when it turns to one’s own parents connected to life support machine and the doctors ask for permission to unplug. This is 2 of 5 heavy evil kamma to kill one’s parents. Blocking all possibility of attainments, guaranteed hell for the immediate next life. It is impossible for stream winners to commit the 5 heavy evil kammas.

  2. Killing or be killed. Like the situation in Ukraine. Those who don’t believe in kamma and rebirth might not value their future lives and just attach to the notion of a country, or family, they might pick up arms to kill. Those who believe in kamma and rebirth, would value not killing and try to flee instead, would risk court martialed rather than to follow military orders to kill. Or simply, wouldn’t want to join in military in the first place. These last few applies to the Russians as well.

  3. Abortion. Those who don’t believe in kamma and rebirth might have no issue in going for abortion, whereas those who keep kamma and rebirth in mind knows that abortion is bad kamma of killing a human. The monastic parajika 3 of no killing humans includes humans in the womb.

There might be more, as I collect them. So far they all seem to be about killing.

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Here is a sutta where the Buddha describes Right View and never mentions rebirth. You can certainly find texts where the Buddha does say that rebirth is right view, but this one does not. Which are we to believe?

Here is a sutta where the Buddha discusses rebirth and no rebirth as possibilities and says the dharma makes sense regardless.

Rebirth makes sense in Brahmanism and Jainism because there is something that is eternal, but it sticks out like a sore thumb in Buddhism. It is the only thing you must simply believe in contrary to the second sutta I link to. Others may find this hard to believe, but I suspect the obsession about rebirth was a later development. The Buddha doesn’t seem to want to talk about it until he spills the beans. It makes no sense to me. Right View can be formulated with out it(first link) and it never factors into any other step of the Eightfold Path.

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I think parts of Buddha-Dhammain EBT are hard to understand without a big picture, a large worldview. It is not really what motivates me but i still feel one needs this big picture to understand Buddha-Dhamma completely.

For example: why are all thoughts, speech, actions rooted in lobha, dosa and moha categorally unwholesome, and can never ever ripen as something wholesome? What is the principle behind this? What did Buddha see?

Often there is some worldly profit in killing (for example in wars or killing animals) lying, deceiving, stealing, infatuation, etc. Still the Buddha teaches it can never ever ripen as profit. How to understand this without a big picture?

A well-known sutta is that of soldier or hireling. He thinks he does good. And which soldier does not think that? They are seen as hero’s. Maybe they survive the war. Earn great respect, get a great pension and all kinds of priviliges. One would see and think that it is profitable to be a soldier and kill enemies.
One earns great respect and gets a good life. But the Buddha says that killing others and seeing other as the one who must destroyed, the enemy, is never profitable. Whatever one earns in this worldy way, this is trivial and one must understand that one harms oneself. I think such lessons can not easily be understood when one thinks in 1 life.

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Ii do not know how you see this (please share if you want) but I do not belief that the Buddha taught that Rebirth is not true or real for someone who knows and sees.

I find it very strange that one reasons:

One can reason further and say …no there is no combination of rooms, their are is only a combination of walls. Then, there are no walls, only combination of bricks. No, there are no bricks…only combination of matter. No there is no solid matter, but only combination of atoms. No there are no atoms there are only quarks…eeuhh…Now i am lost how to go further.

Yes and the house is totally lost. It disappeared :star_struck:

I find this all nonsense. Absurd reductionism. Reduce things till they disappear.
What does it want to proof.?That we do not really live in a house? That this house which keeps us warm does not really exist? Just an idea keeps me warm?

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Very true.
This just to show that there is no absolute entity that exist, independently and eternally. Everything is dependent on other factors, conditioned by others.
Things are like that, but human give it names, and then there is a concept.

For example, a house. A house exist because there are walls, rooms, etc. And then we give it a name, “a house”. And then we grasp at this " House".
This “house” Inside our mind is a solid entity, eternal, and so it is “My House”. And so suffering begin.

The Ultimate Truth, there is no " Solid house".
Conventional truth, still we can see there is a house there, built from many factors.

This is why understanding ultimate and conventional truth and their context is useful.

In case of rebirth, conventionally it happens.

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i don’t understand why people need to believe in rebirth and karma to be a Buddhist, the quickest enlightenment is possible without believing in rebirth and karma and just by understanding this brief 1 paragraph bahiya ended his unsatisfactoriness completely

ud1.10
“Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of unsatisfactoriness.”

I earlier thought this means not self but I was wrong we need to look at the expanded version of that brief 1 paragraph to understand it completely

the expanded version is here in malunkyaputta sutta

sn35.95
“Then, Māluṅkyaputta, with regard to phenomena to be seen, heard, sensed, or cognized: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Māluṅkyaputta, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of unsatisfactoriness.”

“I understand in detail, lord, the meaning of what the Blessed One has said in brief:

Seeing a form
—mindfulness lapsed—
attending to the theme of ‘endearing,’
impassioned in mind,
one feels and remains fastened on it.
One’s feelings,
born of the form,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance injure one’s mind.
Thus amassing unsatisfactoriness,
one is said to be far from unbinding.

Hearing a sound…
Smelling an aroma…
Tasting a flavor…
Touching a tactile sensation…

Knowing an idea
—mindfulness lapsed—
attending to the theme of ‘endearing,’
impassioned in mind,
one feels and remains fastened on it.
One’s feelings,
born of the idea,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance injure one’s mind.
Thus amassing unsatisfactoriness,
one is said to be far from unbinding.

Not impassioned with forms
—seeing a form with mindfulness firm—
dispassioned in mind,
one knows and doesn’t remain fastened on it.
While one is seeing a form
—and even experiencing feeling—
it falls away and doesn’t accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing unsatisfactoriness,
one is said to be in the presence of unbinding.

Not impassioned with sounds…
Not impassioned with aromas…
Not impassioned with flavors…
Not impassioned with tactile sensations…

Not impassioned with ideas
—knowing an idea with mindfulness firm—
dispassioned in mind,
one knows and doesn’t remain fastened on it.
While one is knowing an idea
—and even experiencing feeling—
it falls away and doesn’t accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing unsatisfactoriness,
one is said to be in the presence of unbinding.

“It’s in this way, lord, that I understand in detail the meaning of what the Blessed One said in brief.”

“Good, Māluṅkyaputta. Very good. It’s good that you understand in detail this way the meaning of what I said in brief.”

so I think instead of not self in that earlier brief 1 paragraph Buddha said that cessation of non mindfulness, attending to the theme of ‘endearing,’ impassioned in mind, feeling and remaining fastened on senses objects, the proliferation of feelings and the duality of greed and annoyance are the keys to end all unsatisfactoriness, even malunkyaputta’s understanding of that brief 1 paragraph still don’t include the concept of rebirth and kamma

so rebirth and kamma definitely are not core Buddhist concepts, but I don’t disagree that they may be useful and helpful to end unsatisfactoriness

if you are satisfied now you wont have greed, the fact you still have greed means there’s still unsatisfactoriness there, annoyance is the same

in stoicism it’s the same you generally tend to avoid reactions over external senses objects which is the duality of like of dislike, the stoic founder said we shouldn’t react to things outside of our controls like external senses objects because it’s useless and unnecessary just accept the external phenomenon as it’s

based on that malunkyaputta sutta we know that arahant still experience unsatisfactoriness thus they are normal human being the difference is they have no greed and even annoyance to things they experience while normal people are shot by 2 arrows of experience and reaction, the arahants are shot just by 1 arrow of experience

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If you want to have a discussion whether rebirth is a part of EBT. It has already been researched that it is. What arguments do you have in favour of the view that it is not?

Are you enlightened?

There’s no statement in those suttas that these people do not believe in rebirth. If they already had the basics, can teach them the advanced stuffs.

Why belief in rebirth is needed.

  1. Rebirth is defined as part of right view. Right view is part of noble 8fold path. Right view defines the right in all the path factors. See my reply above on the impact of lack of belief in kamma and rebirth to morality. Wrong action is the result of wrong views. It leads all the way to wrong knowledge and wrong liberation. To be totally safe, it’s best to take on the whole Buddha’s dhamma and not pick and choose for right liberation. Don’t compare to advanced practitioners who likely already cultivated all these stuffs long time ago and had basically every other factor but that crucial insight from Buddha.

  2. And as mentioned above, if someone managed to become a stream winner and still is at least agnostic about rebirth, then they cannot really teach well. They might also misrepresent the teaching of rebirth. Long term effect you get arguments down the line that since there’s no rebirth, there is no difference after death for those who practise vs those who don’t. Why should they sacrifice their sensual pleasures?

  3. The path is built from the grounds up. Trying to skip steps, one just crashes and needs to start again where one skips.

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I agree with you completely. Even in Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta (MN 9) which literally means Right View the Enlightened One says " Would there be another line of reasoning by which a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view… who has arrived at this true Dhamma?”

“There would. When a disciple of the noble ones discerns birth, the origination of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of birth, then he is a person of right view… who has arrived at this true Dhamma.

“And what is birth? What is the origination of birth? What is the cessation of birth? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of birth?

”Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of (sense) spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

“From the origination of becoming comes the origination of birth. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of birth is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

“Now, when a disciple of the noble ones discerns birth, the origination of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way of practice leading to the cessation of birth in this way, when—having entirely abandoned passion-obsession, having abolished aversion-obsession, having uprooted the view-&-conceit obsession ‘I am’; having abandoned ignorance & given rise to clear knowing—he has put an end to suffering & stress right in the here & now, it is to this extent, too, that a disciple of the noble ones is a person of right view… who has arrived at this true Dhamma.”

Origination and cessation of birth is just a different way of acknowleding rebirth.

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This i find not really convincing. Do you really see this happening inside your mind?

It is not a matter of belief anymore, when I just literally presented you with research of Ian Stevenson. You are the one believe something on fantasies. We know this by fact

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Venerable, MN117 explains there are two kinds of right view:

Two kinds of right view

“And what is right view? Right view is twofold, I say. There is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment. And there is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path”.

1. Right views accompanied by defilement, ripening in attachment

“And what is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment? ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results of good and bad deeds. There is an afterlife. There are duties to mother and father. There are beings reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ This is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment”

2. What is noble right view?

“And what is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path? It’s the wisdom—the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the awakening factor of investigation of principles, and right view as a factor of the path—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path. This is called right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path”.

According an interpretation the first serie right views belong to the mundane eightfold Path which starts with those mundane right views, like afterlife. It is called mundane because those views belong to the world and do not lead beyond the world. It is connected to good kamma, meritorious, leading to (relative) happiness in this life and afterlife. These views do not really lead to the end of suffering because they do not lead to the end of samsara. They are also connected with defilements yet.

For that goal one needs the noble eightfold path. The view of rebirth is not the noble right view of the Noble Path which leads out of samsara, in this interpretation.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Also, one can ask: how necessary is the mundane eightfold path for the goal of Nibbana?

(by the way, i have learned that one needs it to accumulate the merit and qualities to progress. A teacher who taught that the mundane Path, the path of conditioning, is as good as worthless, was Krishnamurti).

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