Secular Buddhists represents scientism

Sammādiṭṭhi Sutta (MN 9) which literally means Right View is the sutta you forget to mention. Which talks originattiona and cessation of birth. Meaning rebirth literally.
Anything else you want to know?

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First off, I said the obsession with it came later.

That said, The EBTs are not necessarily original Buddhism. Looking at the common denominators of text written hundreds of year after the Buddha certainly helps us see later developments after the time of those texts, but other methods have to be used to go back further in time.

The thrust of what I said is that there are formulations of Right View that do not mention rebirth and there are suttas that can be interpreted such that it not essential to the practice.

It is very easy to imagine how the emphasis on rebirth could creep in when virtually everyone in the region believed in it before they converted to Buddhism. It is not easy to dismiss that the fact that the Eightfold Path with the version of Right View I linked to is coherent and complete in and of itself.

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Can you please quote sources , how did you reach this conclusion?

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Previously was mentioned the Sabbasava sutta. The views about personality view in the first section ‘seeing’, refer to stream entry:

“He attends appropriately, This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.”—MN 2

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I suspect that the Buddha did not emphasize rebirth to the degree found later for the following reasons:

The Eightfold Path can be formulated without reference to rebirth. See this.

“Sir, they speak of this thing called ‘right view’. How is right view defined?”

“Kaccāna, this world mostly relies on the dual notions of existence and non-existence.

But when you truly see the origin of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of non-existence regarding the world. And when you truly see the cessation of the world with right understanding, you won’t have the notion of existence regarding the world.

The world is for the most part shackled by attraction, grasping, and insisting.

But if—when it comes to this attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendency—you don’t get attracted, grasp, and commit to the notion ‘my self’, you’ll have no doubt or uncertainty that what arises is just suffering arising, and what ceases is just suffering ceasing. Your knowledge about this is independent of others.

This is how right view is defined.

‘All exists’: this is one extreme.

‘All doesn’t exist’: this is the second extreme.

Avoiding these two extremes, the Realized One teaches by the middle way:

‘Ignorance is a condition for choices. Choices are a condition for consciousness. … That is how this entire mass of suffering originates.

When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.’”

The Buddha discusses rebirth and no rebirth as possibilities and says the dharma makes sense regardless. See this.

When that noble disciple has a mind that’s free of enmity and ill will, uncorrupted and purified, they’ve won four consolations in the present life. ‘If it turns out there is another world, and good and bad deeds have a result, then—when the body breaks up, after death—I’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.’ This is the first consolation they’ve won.

‘If it turns out there is no other world, and good and bad deeds don’t have a result, then in the present life I’ll keep myself free of enmity and ill will, untroubled and happy.’ This is the second consolation they’ve won.

‘If it turns out that bad things happen to people who do bad things, then since I have no bad intentions, and since I’m not doing anything bad, how can suffering touch me?’ This is the third consolation they’ve won.

‘If it turns out that bad things don’t happen to people who do bad things, then I still see myself pure on both sides.’ This is the fourth consolation they’ve won.

When that noble disciple has a mind that’s free of enmity and ill will, undefiled and purified, they’ve won these four consolations in the present life.”

Fixation on rebirth appear to hinder in some suttas. See here.

And what are the things to which they pay attention but should not? They are the things that, when attention is paid to them, give rise to unarisen defilements and make arisen defilements grow; the defilements of sensual desire, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. These are the things to which they pay attention but should not.

I think the Buddha implies that he does not make a declaration about rebirth when says the following here:

So, Māluṅkyaputta, you should remember what I have not declared as undeclared, and what I have declared as declared. And what have I not declared? I have not declared the following: … ‘the soul and the body are the same thing,’ ‘the soul and the body are different things,’ …

I believe that soul/jiva is synonymous with citta here. Along with body, they would equate to the five aggregates. Jiva connotes sentience.

Rebirth makes more sense if jiva and the body are different things. Rebirth appears to be impossible if jiva and the body are the same. The body decays.

Since the Buddha will not declare if the body and the jiva are the same or different, it seems to imply he does not declare if rebirth is possible or not. This resonates perfectly with what the consolations the Buddha discusses with the Kalamas.

I recognize that this last one is speculative, but I doubt we could expect anything more explicit to survive the natural winnowing process. People pass on what is consistent with their own beliefs and, as I said before, virtually everyone at that time believed in rebirth.

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Hi @Donabedian and/or anyone currently does not believe in and/or is agnostic about rebirth and/or anyone has a different understanding of rebirth as the conventional sense:

Could you please reply in max 500 words (NOT copy & paste from books, article, etc.) to explain precisely in clear terms your understanding of the First Noble Truth about Suffering?

The truth/falseness of rebirth depends on the conceptualization or model of the rebirth being assessed. For ex. One may ask if kamma is true or not, but different Brahmin and sramana sects had different models or conceptualizations of kamma. Which version is true and which is false? In practice, each abide in their own view, thinking their model of kamma/rebirth etc is the correct one and those of others are false.

Is the conceptualization of rebirth you speak of true or not? That’s what is being asked. Frankly, I wish not to misrepresent your conceptualization. My goal isn’t to adopt or argue against your conceptualization, but rather share a different take.

I equate rebirth and rebecoming with the psychological fabrication of “I”, selfhood, identity view, and notions of “me and mine”. That is to say rebirth and rebecoming occurs at the exact moment when one generates a self in the mind and grasps at the khandhas and holds them to be part of that self. This process is constantly reoccurring in minds and beings here and there. It’s a tendency that most beings haven’t freed themselves from, with the exception of Arahants who have blown out the self and no longer engage in this frivolous, uncomfortable “me-making”. Am “I” an arahant? No, I constantly engage in (re)becoming and me-making, my self concept (the “I” and “me”) is constantly being reborn and is re-dying in the mindstream. Why focus all worries and attention on rebirth after death if mentally constructed selves already experience painful rebecoming and rebirth in this very life, here and now, in this body and mind. That is much more important.

For this reason, I’m more concerned with rebecoming that occurs in this mind, presently, in this life, then rebecoming that may have occurred before the body’s composition or rebecoming that may occur following its dissolution. Yes, many do indeed worry about that, but that concern does not arise here and is not a source of fear or anxiety. After all, the re-arising and rebirth of self concept, of me, myself and I, is already taking place here and that’s enough of a problem to deal with!

I need not need to adhere to abhidharma theories about conventional or ultimate truth, as I find the dichotomy unnecessary to begin with and not fully supported in EBTs. The concept of the body indeed is a construct. I do not need to worry whether bodies “conventionally” or “ultimately” exist or not, because what matters in practice are that they are mental constructs. Constructs may indeed arise, this is true, but the danger is not with the constructs themselves but grasping at these constructs, craving them or hating them.

Our society is already too engrossed with and fettered to what you would call conventional truths. Constructs are everywhere because they are delightful and pleasurable to grasp after. Rather than operating within the boundaries of conventional truth, the focus should be on unbinding from them.

I find little reason to encourage people to accept this conventional truth. It’s like handcuffing someone to a pole then telling them here is how to get the key. Doing away with the burden and limitations imposed by conventional truth one can focus on abandoning unskillful “run of the mill” conventional qualities, crossing the flood, unbinding, and mindful non-grasping.

Take ordinary person for example. If you told him that there is no evidence of rebirth etc, there is no self etc. And then you told him to end self-view. He will ask, “why?” After all, everything will just end in death. Why do any effort? Suffering? Just drown in sense pleasure and forget about it. (Most of people in the world already doing this)

I’d tell there an ordinary person there is no permanent self because all constructs are impermanent. I’d tell him that the self in their minds is a mental construct that arises and fades. I’d tell that the self is a double edged sword, capable of causing pleasure yes, yet also capable of causing immense fears, lamentations, and sufferings. With mindfulness that person can realize how their selves and inner "I"s are being born and are dying.

It’s not so much that everything ends in death- that’s not what I am saying. Rather it is of the nature of all constructs to decay and die.

Most people are willing to take the risk of potential suffering if it means potentially experiencing pleasure in the here and now. They think that by experiencing that pleasure their suffering will diminish. But the wise know that the suffering is merely being masked by the pleasure, much in the same way a curtain drapes over a window and blocks out the rays.

Suffering? Just drown in sense pleasure and forget about it. (Most of people in the world already doing this)

Easier said than done. Sense pleasures are delightful but when the source of the pleasure fades or when we don’t get we want or when the pleasure fades, suffering rears its head again.

The “folk” definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That is essentially the problem with sense pleasures. We think they will permanently satisfy us but they always fail to do so.

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Please read this. There’s no social barrier for Buddha to declare rebirth, kamma as false should he personally realize it is false. But he declared them to be true.

The Buddha would not had taught things which hinders realization.

As wrong views includes actively not believing in rebirth, that is hindrance.

Jīva if seen as soul is deemed as not existing, so there is no meaning to the question of soul same as body or not. The usage here is not citta.

The 5 aggregates model can clearly been seen that mind and body can be grouped separately. Dependent origination maps how they interact with each other. Formless realms indicated that it’s possible for mind to exist without body. It’s still not considered soul because mind is impermanent.

It’s good to reflect how much the ideology of scientism/materialism/physicalism is behind all your disbelief in rebirth. See the feelings accompanying the views. That’s the source of attachments to wrong view.

You see Buddhists like us can still can strive for enlightenment having faith in rebirth. You see enlightened ones like Buddha acknowledging rebirth exist for unenlightened beings.

Let me speculate a bit.

The fear of acknowledging rebirth as true pushes a bit more towards eternalism view a bit, but it’s ok, gradually, one comes back to the middle path. The fear is being responsible not just for this lifetime. But for all potential future lifetime if one doesn’t attain to liberation in this life or at least stream entry. And then the pressure for attainment is much greater.

Well, apply relaxation techniques. And you can also see that yes, things are way more serious and stakes are so much higher that it’s nothing to become a monastic. Nothing much is sacrificed. It’s worth it.

Not believing in rebirth is like an ostrich putting it’s head under the sand. Not wishing to face empirical facts, reality. When the rebirth evidences in the OP clearly has this phenomena. Independent of Buddhism, objectively verified. Thousands of cases. Many pre internet, so basically no way of the kid or family cheating. Even with internet, it is not easy to cheat. So many cases involve hard to dig out facts, not found online.

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Of course.

Right now, secluded, with mindfulness established the mind is observed. The arising and passing of dhammas is noted. Concentration heightens. Something is felt, however. A sense of unpleasantness. A slight pain. A barb. Discomfort. Dissatisfaction with the present state. That is to say dukkha. The experience of dukkha is indeed real, it is truly being felt in the here and now. That is the first noble truth in action.

What accompanies, causes, and intensifies that dukkha? A sense of craving, a desire for pleasurable sensations to cover up and hide that dukkha.

What accompanies, causes, and intensifies that dukkha? A sense of self, experienced as thoughts like “why do I have to suffer” and “I want to be happy”. “Me and mine” and “I” re-enter the stream of mind, here they are reborn and recreated.

What accompanies, causes, and intensifies that dukkha? A craving for near future states of existence within this very life, clinging to the aggregates. Right now I wish I was in a Sauna, experiencing the pleasurable warm heat on this body. I wish that in the near future, I could be there, the pleasure and delight overtaking the mind, enrapturing it.

But as the pleasing fantasy of the sauna fades, a realization of the second truth. It is that very craving that is worsening and causing the suffering. Grasping after sense pleasures, I long to act and bring about and experience pleasurable states of existence in life, in the present and in the future. That longing, grasping, is painful.

When that longing, craving, grasping subsides, when the inner "I"s and "me"s are quieted, when one becomes dispassionate towards sense pleasures, the dukkha actually begins to fade and cease. That is the third noble truth.

The path is the culmination of this process, an understanding of what needs to be done to make sure the origin of suffering is not engendered and the steps are taking to bring upon dukkha’s cessation.

Nowhere need I refer to or worry about conventional rebirth. As it stands, (re)becoming is already taking place in my mind and constant "Me, myself, and I"s are being birthed and created, subsequently identities are being solidified as I identify with this khandha or that khandha. This is a process I aim to stop.

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Indeed, stream enterers do indeed abandon the fetters of identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts and practices and don’t return to them. That is true.

However, even for those who are not stream enterers, it is very possible to abandon identity view for some time, only to later return to it. It is very possible to reach states where fetters are abandoned, but later fall away from those states. It takes practice and skill not to fall away from these states.

So one need not be a stream enterer to apply these teachings and put them into practice to progress along the path. In fact, one needs these teachings in place if one is to become a stream winner.

Seeing refers to experiencing.

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Well said. I had not considered the implications of Jiva being synonymous with citta in that sutta, thanks for pointing it out.

Please quote Sutta on this.

Buddha never tried to convince anyone or noble devotees about believing in rebirth and kamma. But they are good to know (or as FYI = for your information only), not important to actual practice here and now.

Just read AN 3.65 Kalama Sutta.


When that noble devotee has a mind that’s free of enmity and ill will, uncorrupted and purified, they’ve won four consolations in the present life.

‘If it turns out there is another world, and good and bad deeds have a result, then—when the body breaks up, after death—I’ll be reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.’ This is the first consolation they’ve won.

‘If it turns out there is no other world, and good and bad deeds don’t have a result, then in the present life I’ll keep myself free of enmity and ill will, untroubled and happy.’ This is the second consolation they’ve won.

‘If it turns out that bad things happen to people who do bad things, then since I have no bad intentions, and since I’m not doing anything bad, how can suffering touch me?’ This is the third consolation they’ve won.

‘If it turns out that bad things don’t happen to people who do bad things, then I still see myself pure on both sides.’ This is the fourth consolation they’ve won.

When that noble devotee has a mind that’s free of enmity and ill will, undefiled and purified, they’ve won these four consolations in the present life.

Actually anyone who believe and focus in rebirth will never get into the stream. Let alone reach samadhi.

For more details, read MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta, MN 38 MahaTanhaSankaya Sutta, and MN 117 Great forty.

But one who focuses on 4 noble truth and practices noble 8fold path here and now. They might be able to enter the stream and reach other awakening level here and now (no need to wait).

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Seeing how divisive a topic rebirth is, do you really think the Buddha today would walk around breaking the minds of his followers, dismissing lay followers, insisting in what must be perceived by these people as a view (not truth)?

Of course not. He would have found a way to arouse the longing for liberation regardless of the belief in rebirth. He would have either found practices that bring about insight into or conviction of rebirth naturally and then teach it. Or he would have found ways to teach liberation without rebirth altogether.

Don’t forget how much the Buddha took social circumstances into account when he was teaching. Of course I don’t know what and how he would have taught in such an environment, but I’m certain that he was not argumentative and would have found a way.

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It wasn’t divisive until and unless westerners will materialism tried to twist Buddha’s words into things consistent with their believes

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Please read previous answers before asking us to quote sources already quoted above. Secular Buddhists represents scientism - #37 by Tusbuddha

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Hm… quoting MN 9 Samma Ditthi Sutta interesting.

Do you understand what birth (jati) in this MN 9 refer to?

Actually, do you even understand how right view can arise for any humans/beings?

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Jeez, please mind the language. Also please check if your mindset is about “winning” and “I will show them!”.

Also, (much) shorter posts are more likely to be read… :pray:

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I am calling the logic stupid not the people. I am sorry for that if you guys found it offensive.

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Hmm that sounds like ad hominem and not a question. But since I already posted a long answer explaning my position above, I think you wouldn’t want to read even if I give an answer again

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I did quick search of the word right view, don’t see the conditions mentioned.

As long as one is still conditioned by the 6 senses, one will never be free unfortunately. Easy way out is always five senses first, then the thoughts.

Good luck anyway with your path.

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