Seeking Clarification on Karma and Rebirth: Exploring Nuances in the Dīgha Nikāya

Discussion
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Hey folks,

Just been diving into the Pali Canon and stumbled on something that’s got me scratching my head. There’s a bit in the Digha Nikaya where the Buddha talks about rebirth being linked to karma. Now, I get the whole karma influencing future lives thing, but the specifics - how exactly does what we do now play out in terms of where we’re reborn?
I also check this : https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/on-the-reliability-of-digha-nikaya-translations-with-reference-to-the-janavasabha-suttaalteryx-courses But I have not found any solution.

Anyone out there able to shed some light on how certain actions in this life are supposed to determine what kind of creature we become next time around? Are there any suttas that go into more detail, maybe with some examples? I’m especially curious about the connection between specific good or bad deeds and the kind of results they bring in future lives.

Any insights and references would be hugely appreciated!

Thanks

1 Like
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Hi Mia,
Hopefully many members will reply with sutta references and pointers. I just wanted to point out that the exact workings of kamma is one of the imponderables— can make one go mad according to the suttas. On the other hand, there are too many stories and snippets of good or bad actions resulting in particular destination, both past actions giving rise to the current state and current actions that indicate the most likely future destination. While you get some replies, use the Search function with some combination of keywords.

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You might start by using the CIPS and checking “results of actions” and “rebirth”

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Only Buddha, can calculate such things.

  1. “Sāriputta, there are these five destinations. What are the five? Hell, the animal realm, the realm of ghosts, human beings, and gods.

(1) “I understand hell, and the path and way leading to hell. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a state of deprivation, in an unhappy destination, in perdition, in hell.

(2) “I understand the animal realm, and the path and way leading to the animal realm. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in the animal realm.

(3) “I understand the realm of ghosts, and the path and way leading to the realm of ghosts. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in the realm of ghosts.

(4) “I understand human beings, and the path and way leading to the human world. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear among human beings.

(5) “I understand the gods, and the path and way leading to the world of the gods. And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappear in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.

(6) “I understand Nibbāna, and the path and way leading to Nibbāna. [74] And I also understand how one who has entered this path will, by realising for himself with direct knowledge, here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints. MN 12

Otherwise there are only general informations how it works. [AN VI 63 ↓] Consciousness establishes itself on what it finds pleasant, so in rebirth important factors are sensual pleasures and feeling one enjoys. But again when another factor is included, action, it starts simply too complicated to calculate it. Good to remember Buddha’s warning: do not be judgmental regarding people. Do not pass judgment on people. Those who pass judgment on people harm themselves. I alone, or one like me, may pass judgment on people.

And it warning is related with rebirth, it was given in reference to question:

“

Bhante Ānanda, just how should this teaching of the Blessed One be understood, where one who is celibate and one who is not celibate both have exactly the same destination in their future life? [348] My father Purāṇa was celibate, living apart, abstaining from sexual intercourse, the common person’s practice. When he died, the Blessed One declared: ‘He attained to the state of a once-returner and has been reborn in the Tusita group [of devas].’ My paternal uncle Isidatta was not celibate but lived a contented married life. When he died, the Blessed One also declared: ‘He attained to the state of a once-returner and has been reborn in the Tusita group [of devas].’ Bhante Ānanda, just how should this teaching of the Blessed One be understood, where one who is celibate and one who is not celibate both have exactly the same destination in their future life?”

AN VI 44

And what is the result of sensual pleasures? One produces an individual existence that corresponds with whatever [sense pleasures] one desires and which may be the consequence either of merit or demerit. This is called the result of sensual pleasures. (…)

“And what is the result of feelings? One produces an individual existence that corresponds with whatever [feelings] one experiences and which may be the consequence either of merit or demerit. This is called the result of feelings. (…)

“And what is the diversity of the taints? There are taints leading to hell; there are taints leading to the animal realm; there are taints leading to the realm of afflicted spirits; there are taints leading to the human world; there are taints leading to the deva world. This is called the diversity of the taints.

“And what is the result of the taints? One immersed in ignorance produces a corresponding individual existence, which may be the consequence either of merit or demerit. This is called the result of the taints.(…)

“When it was said: ‘Kamma should be understood … the way leading to the cessation of kamma should be understood,’ for what reason was this said?

“It is volition, bhikkhus, that I call kamma. For having willed, one acts by body, speech, or mind.
“And what is the source and origin of kamma? Contact is its source and origin.

“And what is the diversity of kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell; there is kamma to be experienced in the animal realm; there is kamma to be experienced in the realm of afflicted spirits; there is kamma to be experienced in the human world; and there is kamma to be experienced in the deva world…This is called the diversity of kamma.

“And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma, I say, is threefold: [to be experienced] in this very life, or in the [next] rebirth, or on some subsequent occasion. This is called the result of kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? With the cessation of contact there is cessation of kamma.

“This noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of kamma, namely, right view … right concentration.

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands kamma, the source and origin of kamma, the diversity of kamma, the result of kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma, he understands this penetrative spiritual life to be the cessation of kamma.
“When it was said: ‘Kamma should be understood … [416] the way leading to the cessation of kamma should be understood,’ it is because of this that this was said.

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Hi and welcome to the forum. :slightly_smiling_face:

As mentioned in an other post, the intricacies of kamma cannot be fathomed.
However, it can be helpful to see how what the mind settles on frequently and consistently can have skillful (meaning leading to liberation) or unskillful effects.

For example, SN42.3:

And for a third time the warrior chief said to the Buddha:

“Sir, I have heard that the warriors of the past who were teachers of teachers said: ‘Suppose a warrior, while striving and struggling in battle, is killed and finished off by his foes. When his body breaks up, after death, he’s reborn in the company of the gods of the fallen.’ What does the Buddha say about this?”

“Clearly, chief, I’m not getting through to you when I say: ‘Enough, chief, let it be. Don’t ask me that.’ Nevertheless, I will answer you.

When a warrior strives and struggles in battle, their mind is already low, degraded, and misdirected as they think: ‘May these sentient beings be killed, slaughtered, slain, destroyed, or annihilated!’ His foes kill him and finish him off, and when his body breaks up, after death, he’s reborn in the hell called ‘The Fallen’.

But if you have such a view: ‘Suppose a warrior, while striving and struggling in battle, is killed and finished off by his foes. When his body breaks up, after death, he’s reborn in the company of the gods of the fallen.’ This is your wrong view. An individual with wrong view is reborn in one of two places, I say: hell or the animal realm.”

When he said this, Dustin the warrior chief cried and burst out in tears."

And MN57:

"Take someone who develops the cow observance fully and uninterruptedly. They develop a cow’s ethics, a cow’s mentality, and a cow’s behavior fully and uninterruptedly. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in the company of cows. But if they have such a view: ‘By this precept or observance or fervent austerity or spiritual life, may I become one of the gods!’ This is their wrong view. An individual with wrong view is reborn in one of two places, I say: hell or the animal realm. So if the cow observance succeeds it leads to rebirth in the company of cows, but if it fails it leads to hell.”

" “Puṇṇa, I declare these four kinds of deeds, having realized them with my own insight. What four?

  1. There are dark deeds with dark results;
  2. bright deeds with bright results;
  3. dark and bright deeds with dark and bright results; and
  4. neither dark nor bright deeds with neither dark nor bright results, which lead to the ending of deeds."

The sutta continues from there with further teachings about this.

Hope this is helpful!

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How i see it:

First of all you must put your mind upon something. You will not become a criminal if your mind is not at all interested in that. You will probably not become an expert in some field, if your mind does not incline towards that. The mind is like an inner flashlight that is focussed on attaining certain goals.

Some young people already know what they want to become. Nurse, scientist etc. They can also realise that. I know some of such people. It is like their mind shines upon that goal and they realise it.
But they will not create that future for themselves if their mind does not shine on that goal.

Actions are based upon a certain view or vision the mind has. This is for example said in AN1.314, AN1.315. Intentions, speech, deeds, they are connected to a certain view or vision, for example, how to become happy or realise a goal.

View is most important in Dhamma, because where ones mind aims at, how it is directed, where it shines upon, that is most important. More important then intention. One can have very good intentions with animals, human beings, but if the view of what leads to their welbeing is wrong, the results will also not be good.

Sometimes mind is really connected to unwholesome spheres or goals of direction. Such as the wish to hurt other beings, coming with a lot of agression, anger, violence. The wish to dominate over others.
One can say, the more mind shines upon this, the more one becomes this. Gradually, but surely, one becomes an agressor. Those unwholesome inclinations, habits, conditionings become stronger and stronger the more mind shines upon abusing and hurting others.

If one dies, this does not suddenly dissolve into nothing. But one will be attracted to such a realm and future existence that matches. All these tendencies to hurt, to be violent, agressive, represent energy.
All these conditionings have there own momemtum. At least that is how i envision this.

In MN57 it is said that if one would really imitate the life of a dog perfectly, for example, more or less become a dog, that will have this momentum that one will also be born among dogs. It seeks a matching existence as it were.

We create a certain world and sphere in this life dependend upon where our minds are shining on or are connected with. Is our mind mind attracted towards love, compassion, or maybe agression, abuse?
We can see this makes the difference in what world we create for ourselves and others. Buddha’s insight was, appareantly, that this passes also death.