Just out of curiosity, is that because your Vinaya class has a rule requiring that lay people who attend must be 8 precepts, or does it just so happen to be that all the lay people who attend have chosen to follow 8 precepts?
1 Like
There was a belief among Confucians that Buddhism denied the basis for a moral society, that monks and nuns were not moral in private, and generally an economic drain on society in any case. It was similar to the way post-modernism and public assistance is viewed by conservatives in the West.
The persecutions, though, were often very cynical. The government would find itself teetering on bankruptcy after a war or rebellion and expropriate the land and precious metals owned by the monasteries. Confucian nativists would publicly attack both Buddhism and Daoism to give the government a moral or ideological cause for doing this. This went on from time to time from 500 CE on.
Since monks and nuns were exempt from taxation, the sangha was also often regulated in how large it was allowed to be, so monasteries were sometimes owned by the government. No doubt there was regulations on the monks and nuns who occupied such monasteries, since they were essentially public servants. And the government sometimes would sell official ordination certificates (during the Sung periods) to raise cash as a result of this.
I’d suspect modern Chinese Buddhist sensibilities would be strongly shaped by Mao’s Cultural Revolution, which tried to erase religion and capitalist influences from society. That was a bad time. People were randomly lynched, arrested, and publicly humiliated for whatever random reason a mob happened to come up with. I would be surprised if there weren’t strictures in place that go back to that experience, rather than obscure passages in this or that ancient text.
3 Likes
Ah! That jogs my memory as to the citation: The History of Chinese Buddhist Bibliography: Censorship and Transformation of the Tripitaka by Tanya Storch.
tl;dr: By studying official bibliographies from the middle ages, we know that Buddhist monastics were hiding Vinaya texts from the laity even at that time.
3 Likes
It’s in a monastery, the lay people are people intending to be monks, living long term in a monastery. So naturally, it’s expected that 8 precepts are observed.
2 Likes
dukkata : (adj.) badly done. (nt.) wrong action.
Source: BuddhaSasana: Concise Pali-English Dictionary
1 Like
I don’t see any benefit of pursuing this.
In practise, if during the patimokkha recitation, there’s some people in the sima hall who shouldn’t be there, they are just asked to leave. There’s virtually no chance of committing this dukkata unless the whole sangha there never properly learn the vinaya and just chant and dunno what they chant. Or some lay people wear an invisible cloak or have painted themselves in camoflauge and sit very still that no one noticed.
2 Likes
I think this only happening in the Theravada temple/group, but not in the Chinese. The Pali is simply not their language at all!
1 Like
Monks are expected to learn the vinaya during the first 5 years of being under dependence, or else they cannot be freed from dependence. According to even one of the Vinaya rules, they should not claim that they dunno this particular rule existed as an excuse for their breaking of the rule, within 1.5-2 months of ordaining. From Pacittiya 73, 3rd or 4th time already reciting the rules, still don’t pay attention to it. It implies that new monks are expected to learn the rules (broad outline at least) before ordaining or very quickly within 2 months of ordaining.
During the recitation itself, it doesn’t matter if one doesn’t know Pali. What matters is that one knows the rules.
4 Likes
Interesting book! I’ll check it out. There’s a wealth of historical sources about Chinese Buddhism, from both Buddhist and non-Buddhist witnesses, just not much in English.
2 Likes
For the hungry minds: English translation of Records of the Transmission of the Lamp (With story of the formation of Zen Regulations in book 2, pages 208)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1EfTd8A7Boal_Hg2oKNPYrw9vvSAvD87Z
4 Likes
Looking through the Baizhang Zen Monastic Rules, the authors refer to specific passages in the five Vinayas, as well as many other classical Buddhist texts. It seems they were quite comfortable with these. That probably makes sense when considering the Vinaya school, etc.
From the other side of things, do we know whether Theravada traditions were different? We have already seen some similar ideas in the Milindapanha.
History of Ceylon (1847), about Buddhism in Burma and Thailand:
The Amarapoora sect differs from the Siamese sect in the following points: […] 6thly. The Amarapoora priests expound and preach the Vinaya pittaka to the laity, whilst the Siamese read only a few passages among the Upasampatha order of priests with closed doors; […]
Buddha: His Life, His Doctrine, His Order (1882):
As regards the character of the Patimokkha as a secret lore, cf. “Milinda Panha,” p. 190, seq. From this it also follows, when tradition represents a person like the young Moggaliputta, who is put forward as the model of a quickly progressing scholar, as still learning during the four years of his noviciate only the collections of the Suttas and the Abhidhamma, that the Vinaya was an Arcanum, which became accessible to him after his ordination, and not till then. —Vinaya Pitaka, vol. iii, p. 299.
A Primer on Hinduism (1904), footnote on the Buddhist Vinaya Pitaka:
This part of the Buddhist canon was kept secret by the monks, and was not revealed even to the Buddhist laity. Most of the monastic orders seem to have refused to divulge their disciplinary rules.
These sources seem to have some familiarity with the idea of the Patimokkha or the Vinaya Pitaka being kept from the laity. The Burmese tradition appears to be a notable exception.
5 Likes
I can’t speak for the class the venereable mentioned, but the Vinaya classes I have attended (if I am remembering correctly) were limited to either monastics or those in white who had officially started the process to become monastics, which would have meant they were following 8 precepts. This was for practical reasons, not Vinaya requirements. It is natural that you would teach Vinaya in a Dhamma talk to lay people in a very different way than you would to those in a class who were required to follow the rules in detail in their own lives. For example, there are lots of very explicit sexual things talked about in the Vinaya that have to be gone over in detail. In a mixed audience teachers may be reluctant to talk about them this way, and students might also feel more inhibited in asking questions.
Also, as in the Patimokkha recitation, discussion in a class may lead one to realize that one may have broken a precept and it is good to be able to talk it all out. And sometimes in class a discussion can arise where the community decides to change how a rule is followed. I remember once that when discussing medicines, the head monk realized that the fish-oil pills he was taking shouldn’t be treated as a lifetime medicine, but probably a 7 day.
And that leads to another aspect… The detail involved in some of the rules can be a real turn off to people who do not have a lot of saddha in the Buddha. Especially because of the common trope that Buddhism is about letting go, so why all these picky rules!
As well, Vinaya classes are also a place where monks may want to share difficult situations they have found them in, along with all sorts of modern stories of monks keeping and breaking precepts that would not really increase the faith of the faithless.
My point with all of this is not to say that Vinaya shouldn’t be taught to lay people, just that a Vinaya class for monastics is often more effective if it is private.
10 Likes
Teaching the Patimokkha obviously involves ‘recitation’ of the words of the Patimokkha, which is the core content of the Vinaya. So, the Vinaya should not be taught to lay people by Bhikkhus/monastics.
1 Like
You are wrong bro because in vinaya there is a passage showing lays people too know the patimokha especially the rules related to householders
1 Like
You should try to attend a Vinaya class in a monastery.
There’s no recitation of the Pali wordings of the Patimokkha in the class.
We mostly have Q&A style and going through the Buddhist monastic code 1 & 2.
3 Likes
The Buddha wanted his teaching and training to spread out.
“Three things shine in the open, not under cover. What three? The moon shines in the open, not under cover. The sun shines in the open, not under cover. The teaching and training proclaimed by a Realized One shine in the open, not under cover. These three things shine in the open, not under cover.”” MN3.131 SuttaCentral
In fact, there were suttas that the the Buddha mentioned about Monk’s ethical codes to the lay people for example: DN2 SuttaCentral
1 Like
@NgXinZhao and @Snowbird — thanks for clarifying. I kinda suspected the lay ppl studying the Vinaya w/ monks were Anagarikas thinking about ordaining.
Lol they can be a turn off even for people who do have Saddha in the Buddha!
1 Like
Well, it depends. I think over a certain level of faith, there’s more acceptance.
For instance, the detailed, wide coverage of the rules can give faith in “wow, they thought of that.” Some other instances, the rules coverage is not so wide, and we have to apply the great standards to discuss new technology, changes in society and how to apply certain rules. Very legal speak, lawyer like discussion because we have a stake in observing the rules.
Some rules can seem ridiculous even with the origin story told, so acceptance via faith is the way to move forward then. I think it’s that the rules exposes where we can improve in reducing greed, hatred and delusion, it’s good to notice when we have objection to which rules, and work on our defilements. Instead of letting the defilements reduce faith, or “turn off”.
2 Likes
Interesting, thoughts, @NgXinZhao. I especially like your point here, which I hadn’t considered before:
I guess for me one thing that’s inspired faith in the Vinaya (I’m speaking as a lay person who considered ordination at one point) is the fact that the rules are often (usually?) imposed due to complaints from laity. It’s not the Buddha simply trying to enforce his way on his monks/nuns because he could— he wanted to make sure his monks/nuns earned their respect from their supporters. I guess this is something that should be emphasized for lay people who are interested in studying Vinaya.
2 Likes
Could you show me the passage? Thanks