Should the Vinaya be kept secret from the laity?

I’m not sure if anyone has done an analysis, but many rules are instigated by monastics. I believe that a large number of the rules exclusive to bhikkhunis were created at the urging of good bhikkhunis.

The Buddha had a principle that rules were only created when an issue arose.

I guess by turn off I meant that they would decrease faith, not that they wouldn’t make one’s eyes glaze over. I know one monk who I would have to describe as having the most saddha I have ever seen, and even he said that reading through pages of permutations of minute differences in rules wasn’t really helpful. (Although, of course, when trying to solve a legal issue they are helpful)

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This bro @thomaslaw I hope I correct your wrong view :hugs::hugs:

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I think you misunderstand recitation of Vinaya here. It just refers to the fortnightly uposatha days for Bhikkhus. It means that during that recitation, no non-Bhikkhus should be there.

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Seriously? Likely by whom?

The monks teaching the class? It is hardly likely that they consider they are committing an offense by teaching the class.

Likely by all of the very strict Vinaya Theravada monasteries around the world who hold Vinaya classes for samaneras/samaneries for months before ordination? This seems very unlikely.

Likely by all the people in this thread who have supported your faulty logic in coming to this conclusion? I actually don’t see any.

It would appear that the only one likely to consider this an offense is you.

I do appreciate, though, that you edited your post to refrain from accusing a forum member of committing your invented “evil act.”

It’s actually quite comical. I can see someone in your imagined universe asking a monk,

This whole thing is proof, in fact, that monks should be able to teach Vinaya to lay people so people don’t get away with spreading wrong ideas.

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Knowing the rules that monastics should follow is essential for lay people. The lay community has a role in holding monastics to the high standards of behaviour expected by the Buddha as contained in the vinaya. Without knowing the rules how could lay people know what was appropriate conduct or not?

The story in the Culla Vagga of the badly behaved monks at Kitagiri shows the important consequences of lay people being unable to distinguish between good and bad behaviour, their ignorance being exploited by unscrupulous monastics. The effect of the bad behaviour was that the faith of the lay people was greatly diminished and that good monks left the city and only bad monks remained. They were termed corrupters of families, and banished from the sangha!

Having knowledge of the rules and encouraging monastics maintain them is a source of faith and inspiration in the lay people, to see monastics practicing well, in line with the vinaya. But they firstly need to know what these rules are…

Here’s what can happen when lay people are ignorant of the rules:

At one time Assaji and Punabbasuka were the resident monks at Kīṭāgiri. They were bad and shameless. They were misbehaving in this way:

They planted flowering trees, watered and plucked them, and then tied the flowers together. They made the flowers into garlands, garlands with stalks on one side and garlands with stalks on both sides. They made flower arrangements, wreaths, ornaments for the head, ornaments for the ears, and ornaments for the chest. And they had others do the same. They then took these things, or sent them, to the women, the daughters, the girls, the daughters-in-law, and the female slaves of good families.

They ate from the same plates as these women and drank from the same vessels. They sat on the same seats as them, and they lay down on the same beds, on the same sheets, under the same covers, both on the same sheets and under the same covers. They ate at the wrong time, drank alcohol, and wore garlands, perfumes, and cosmetics. They danced, sang, played instruments, and performed. While the women were dancing, singing, playing instruments, and performing, so would they.

They played various games: board games with eight and ten rows, imaginary board games, hopscotch, spillikins, dice games, tip-cat, painting-with-the-hand games, ball games, toy-pipe games, toy-plow games, turning somersaults, toy-windmill games, toy-measure games, toy-carriage games, toy-bow games, letter-guessing games, thought-guessing games, games of mimicking deformities.

They trained in elephant riding, in horsemanship, in carriage riding, in archery, in swordsmanship. And they ran in front of elephants, in front of horses, and in front of carriages, and they ran backwards and forwards. They whistled, clapped their hands, wrestled, and boxed. They spread their outer robe on a stage and said to the dancing girls, “Dance here, Sister,” and they made gestures of approval. And they misbehaved in a variety of ways.

See Section 3 on banishment here:
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd11/en/brahmali

Knowing the rules monastics are supposed to follow would have prevented these lay people from being corrupted and inadvertently supporting bad bhikkhus.

Whilst in many Buddhist countries, the lay people have a general sense of the rules and society is somewhat set up to help the monastics follow them, in places where Buddhism is newer it is even more vital to teach the vinaya rules to lay people so that the community can support monastics to practice in accordance with the vinaya. Otherwise there is the potential for misunderstandings. In addition, monastics may not receive the support they need and cannot flourish, and if they need to break their rules to survive, other lay people will lose faith in the sangha.

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What is the point to discuss the issue “should the Vinaya be kept secret from the laity?”

The first schism occurred not long after the second council; it arose mainly out of the differences over certain Vinaya rules, not about the core teachings (dharma/dhamma) of Early Buddhism.

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For future generations to not think that Vinaya cannot be taught by monks to lay people.

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If you no longer have anything new to add you are free to stop posting.

If someone keeps posting wrong information, then people are free to try to correct the information.

If you don’t want to see this thread in the list of new posts, you are welcome to change the notification status to “muted”.

There are lots of interesting things being posted in this thread. It’s a shame those things have to be inturrupted by this nonsense of one person pushing incorrect information.

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This is another point.

I think this is a very good point.

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This is just one point.

Wow. That’s a clear one

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@Akaliko I really liked this part of the text you wrote. It is very important to seek more and more knowledge to know how to help monks maintain the high standards passed on by the Buddha. Thanks for sharing. Here is part of your text:

“Knowing the rules that monastics should follow is essential for lay people. The lay community has a role in holding monastics to the high standards of behaviour expected by the Buddha as contained in the vinaya. Without knowing the rules how could lay people know what was appropriate conduct or not?”

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