Sīla, a Base for a Happy Mind?

The Watercooler
21

Non-celibacy is more coarse than celibacy. The training on celibacy or any of the precepts above the 5 precepts are for refining your mental states. One would make the intentional wholesome choice to give up sexuality because they value the pleasure of meditation more.

The difference is we are the makers of our own heaven and hell realms. Our choices create our world. If all that we are directing our minds to is stinginess, meanness and harming then that’s where we will be reborn. No different than someone who practice frequent jhana being reborn in a jhana realm. If your mind frequents a set of experience then that’s where it will hang out. it’s not up to the judgement of an external force to decide how we are reborn.

1 Like
22

thanks, that is a strong example of the poison. I do not know. For me it feels not really sincere when people show regret with words but at the same time do not seem personally affected and life just goes on.

My experience is, this is what people understand. I also have seen many times that my patience was not beneficial at all. But only a cause for creating still more mess. I believe in general: when you are not just open about what you really feel, that creates a mess.

My conclusion is: the world you have to deal with in a worldly way. That is the best because this is what people understand, are used to. They do not understand when you practice love, compassion, patience etc. And for who…for yourself right?

My experience is: Just express what is going on in you, what is really on your heart, your concerns, your doubts, your expactations, needs, ideas, emotions etc. Often all that restraint and lack of really expressing what is on your heart, does not help at all. It only leads to stress and many more mis-understandings. You even start to feel disconnected from other people and also yourself.

If there is a task, i feel the task is to seek a way in which one can freely in a senstitive way express what is on your heart. In the world this is the best, i believe. This is really conducive for all.

23

But Buddhism does not really deal with creating a better world but escaping it. That is a very different perspective i feel. Can you really imagine a world in which there is no ownership? Such things may be the way out of the world but not of this world.

But i believe in liberation as freedom, meaning, one can live like one owns things but just as easy let go of them. There is no problem then in having ideas about me and mine. I also believe this describes the world of awakened ones.

This is a bit difficult for me, because i feel what is good can also be unwholesome for oneself. For example, taking care of a sick mother or father. Which is really a burden, can come with a lot of pressure, stress, worries, anxiety, concerns…but i feel it is huge failure if one chooses for ones own welbeing only. This i see as a moral failure and this weighs heavy for me, i notice.

There is also a sutta somewhere which says that one must not forsake one own welbeing for that of another…such ideas i find problematic and egocentric.
In other words, for me, there are still things that are more important then my own welbeing. It is not that i seek some reward, or want to be a martyr, it just feels what is right to do. A lot of people have this.
For a lot of people suffering is not a real issue. They want to help eachother, they want to support eachother, have concern for eachother, feel it as their task to help in a practical way.

24

I believe that for Christians Jesus has made an end to the original sin. He has died for our sins. And by this, and by believing in Jesus, one is now freed and forgiven. Jesus has ended that idea that one must earn heaven, or earn the blessing of God. At least, such i have heard. I am not a christian and not raised that way, but live in a Christian culture and speak with those heretics :heart_eyes:

Some Christians still live like they must earn everything but according other Christians this is foolish.

I personally tend to believe this is the real Mara. The idea, the view, the believe, the notion, the subconscious feeling that we must earn everything. This is in general i believe the ways of the world. It is always about earning. Earning respect, earning love, earning Nibbana, earning blessing of God, earning this and that.

Being obsessed with the notion that all is made, produced, result of thinking, speech, acts.
Like there is no other reality.

I believe this is so fundamentally mistaken. But Mara keeps all beings trapped in this feeling that all must be earned, and made.

I believe, a Buddha teaches the unmade, that what is not result. That what does not depend on merit.
Nibbana. That is what is for free, Nibbana is for free. It is not arrived at by earning it.
Merit may be supportive but does not cause Nibbana.

I feel this is also the dart in our heart. That wound. That feeling that we must always proof our goodness, our purity, our wisdom, our love etc. To God, ourselves, others.

25

Well written there.
IM(H)O this goes directly to the core of Dhamma.

:pray:

26

AN 11.11:

“Again, Mahānāma, you should recollect your own virtuous behavior as unbroken, flawless, unblemished, unblotched, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration. When a noble disciple recollects his virtuous behavior, on that occasion his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred, or delusion; on that occasion his mind is simply straight, based on virtuous behavior. A noble disciple whose mind is straight gains inspiration in the meaning, gains inspiration in the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. When he is joyful, rapture arises. For one with a rapturous mind, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body feels pleasure. For one feeling pleasure, the mind becomes concentrated. This is called a noble disciple who dwells in balance amid an unbalanced population, who dwells unafflicted amid an afflicted population. As one who has entered the stream of the Dhamma, he develops recollection of virtuous behavior.”

Note this is a noble disciple, whose mind, “on that occasion” of recollection, was not obsessed by greed, hatred or delusion. This is more straightforward for the noble disciple, but is available for the ordinary person as well to the extent that they can value and understand the benefits of virtue. Keeping the precepts is not enough. Wanting the joy is not enough.

3 Likes
27

I very much like that part of

ungrasped… not thinking about virtous behaviour from the perspective of a virtuous- self but from the perspective that a mind without sense of self and ownership, that has given rise to knowledge, is virtuous. Virtuous is the cleansed mind.

It is inspring, indeed, to see this. Virtue is unborn. It is fully for free. One cannot make virtue. One can remove defilements, distortions of wisdom, but virtue is a birthright.
All beings have a noble nature. All. Even the psychopaths. Maybe even I.

I feel this is really true and inspiring.

But to think about a noble-self and not-noble-self is saddening, darkness, untruth, fake news.

28

Virtue is not nibbāna.

Perhaps to the arahants? But even they might accidentally break some vinaya rules which doesn’t require mind factor to break.

One can. Reflect on moral shame and dread, listen to dhamma, adopt right view of kamma and rebirth etc.

Would you say a psychopath who is a serial killer also is noble? Or is it better to just say those who have attained are noble?

This is an issue with you. You just want a feel good religion.

There’s no self. The noble ones doesn’t think that they are noble as an identity to act based on that identity. For those before stream winning, they shouldn’t identify as not noble as well.

29

I sincery believe the Buddha has seen and taught that a detached mind spontanously gives rise to virtue. But especially a sense of me, mine, my self, distorts it, deforms it. But maybe i can rather speak of heart. I have not really developed yet a consistent system of thoughts about this. I believe mind is most of the time related to conceiving. But heart is not. I believe it might be useful to develop a consistent system of thoughts in which all is well-defined, such as mind, vinnana, heart. I feel this is a bit lacking in the sutta’s. Vinnana cannot be mind ofcourse and there is also reason to distinguish mind from heart. Mind-consciousness is surely not the heart, for example, and mind-base surely not heart-base. I feel, when we discuss all these things, we really need a more advanced way to speak about things, more in the style of Abhidhamma. Otherwise it becomes a mess.

I feel conceiving is indeed like a disease, like the Buddha also says. If i see this in my own mind, i see that the energy in arising, plans, intentions, tendencies give rise to conceiving. Or related to ordinairy experience; those cause that we make the head our home. Maybe this sounds cheap, shallow, but i feel this is no small thing. I see it works that way. It not difficult to see that the stream of mano vinnana’s (not all vinnana’s) relies on arising plans, intentions, tendencies. Upon that kind of loaded formations, mind starts conceiving, gets involved in conceiving. This is how vinnana’s estbalish upon plans, intentions and tendencies, i feel.

Arising plans, intentions, tendencies are not just some neutral formations. There is something to it that makes us start conceiving. Trapped in the head. But not all formations have that.
Once the head is our home and we are involved in conceiving, all we imagine, think, conceive, how realistic it also might feel, is dream-like. The magician vinnana fools us.

All what makes us criminals, psychopaths, foolish, immoral, animals, peta’s, hell beings, but surely also deva’s, it is not because we are criminals, psychopaths, animals, hell beings, deva’s, peta’s but only because we are not able to see and deal with arising formations as not me, not mine, not my self. Only due to this instinctive grapsing we can become like that, temporary, in this life and after.
The uniqueness of the human bhava is that it so flexible and can become quit easily this and that. From friendly and gentle to someone who does see a person as object, from animal-like to deva.
But i believe there is no fixed bhava from birth.

But i am not that naive anymore that i believe that one does not need wisdom and other powers. Those are needed to remove all defilements. So, one can say that must also become a part of our dispostion. That learned wisdom, that learned concentration etc. That what is gradually developed must replace the in former lifes ingrained wrong views, habits, etc. But this does not mean that the heart is of itself not pure. Noble. I am also convinved that the heart cannot change. Conditionings can but what is unconditioned cannot change.

Dhamma , for me, is really about what must be developed but also about seeing what cannot be developed. I do not doubt this. The Buddha has not created, made, constructed the hearts purity. He only removed all impurity with mental abilities that he developed gradually. He did not create nor make Nibbana. Nibbana is also not buddhist. It is not at all a result of a buddhist path. No, the result of the buddhist path is that all defilements are removed, like metals, salt, dirt from water. But the water is not created. Likewise Nibbana is not created by any buddhist, and yes, i believe that those who say so, they are wrong.

It just a wrong idea that in life all can and must be made. That is really the mentallity and the ignorance of the world. The world has no clue of the unmade, unconditioned, unproduced. The worlds ways are about making, producing, constructing etc. But what is made will always desintegrate. So what is the use of seeking refuge in that? I do not understand why this basic lesson of the Buddha does not land in the heart. Why is it some taboe that here and now there can be an unmade, unbecome, unproduced?

30

Just take note of what AN 11.11 is saying. The recollection of virtue is something the mind (which has its own preferences) could be at odds with, but in the case of the noble disciple, that virtue is very much established, and the mind is not obsessed as a result of the recollection. That is why there is joy. The mind is often compared to a wild elephant. This is an important distinction. The mind is what needs to grow to appreciate being “not obsessed”. It needs to be tamed. It is important that we don’t place the responsibility in the wrong place. Volitionally speaking, we may desire that joy (that is the basis for rapture), and we must practice restraint, but the choice of being “not obsessed” is not ours to make. The mind is the master we cook for (SN 47.8), and if there is not a clear distinction, there is no sign of the mind to speak of, and we may end up under the impression that volition is sufficient for that virtue to be a source of joy. The mind needs time and training for virtue to be of any value.

31

I do not know we are on the same page but i believe this:

When a noble disciple recollects their ethical conduct their mind is not full of greed, hate, and delusion.

means: the noble discipline is inspired by virtue but not in the sense of 'I am virtuous". There is no conceit in regard to virtue…no delusion. If one think about oneself as: ‘i am virtuous’ and delights in that, that is conceit. That is not free of delusion. But one can be happy, glad, joyful that the mind gives rise to virtue and that virtuous deed are done. One does not have to relate this to a self or I am. That only gives rise to delusion and self-love.

I also agree with what Buddha says about effort etc. At the same time i feel it is a mistake to think that nobility is a matter of conditioning, forming, shaping, fake it till you make it.

The Buddha is so clear about this. One can develop things to remove defilements, first coarse (misdeeds), then middle (sensuality, cruelty, harming) and then the most subtle that deal with reputation, more social issues. If one applies techniques, skillfully, the gold of the mind will be purified but ofcourse not created.

Yes, i believe those thins go together. If one grows in dispassion, one also becomes more and more aware of passion, of obsessions. People that are hardly aware of dispassion, they do not even see clearly how obsessed their mind is.

But often, for example, people can feel a very peaceful, dispassionate mind in nature, when alone.
Then dispassion becomes visible here and now. And often, in other circumstance the mind easliy give rise to obsessions again. But it is extremly rare that people have no idea of dispassion. Maybe they are not really aware of it, but all beings know it.

My experience is: obsession grows upon wounds, trauma’s, issues which are emotionally not properly dealt with. First of all these must be healed and dhamma is not the path for that. Therapy is.
This is not really in the sutta’s but i believe this is important.

32

Dear Green, I hope you are well :slightly_smiling_face: :pray:

I think you are onto something crucial here. I will address the sila aspect of your question.

As the quotes already given have indicated, the practice of Sila is fundamental to the Path. What you will find is that acting from sila, from the desire to be harmless to the whole world, to allow people to live at ease and to reduce their suffering, actually enables you yourself to feel at ease and reduce your own suffering. Structurally this is putting the causes into place for your own Peception and experience of the world to begin to transform and become aligned with that of the Buddha. The more ‘good’ you put out, then the more good you see, and the more good you receive back. It’s quite remarkable and doesn’t take that long. If you do this for a year, there will be significant change. Do it for a decade and you will be a happy and content person. But as has been said – the trick is you can’t do it from a ‘greedy’ attitude wanting something in return (this sets you up with expectations of entitlement and when it doesn’t happen, to be blaming and bitter etc. The correct causes are not in place and it just cant work ) – it has to be purely from the perspective of selfless giving, with no expectations – unconditional giving.
You are kind because you understand the Suffering of all Beings. Then there is no effort, no other way to be. It is transformative.

This works to totally change the focus… in order to be able to do it, one stops thinking about and focusing on the Self… the focus is on others. It is not just my suffering, not just about me, but about all beings in this samsara. This works on the mind and heart in so many ways. Instead of trying to escape due to aversion, one transforms the negative into the positive, turns ill will into metta, turns blame and judgement into karuna, jealousy into mudita and anguish over lack of control into equanimity. This affects not only oneself but all those you have contact with. This is why the Buddha categorically says that being kind, practicing sila, is ‘being a friend to oneself and others’. Just this practice is enough to change your life to one where it feels like one is living in a Brahmavihara.

Wishing you all the very best with your practice and much joy and peace

2 Likes
33

With such replies even I can find joy, peace. Thanks. This touches my heart.

2 Likes
34

Do you think it is impossible to value the pleasure of meditation and, at the same time, participate in sexual activities? If one’s sexual activities don’t impede the meditation practice, why would becoming celibate be wholesome?

35

I have read suttas about creating a better world (DN 27; DN 31; others); however there is no escape from the world of suffering in Buddhism without sila. MN 6 makes this absolutely clear.

I read in DN 31 a child should serve their parents thinking I will support those who supported me. Its not a burden for a person trained in Buddhism. If a person is unable to take care of a sick mother or father how is the same person expected to be able to ‘escape’ the world by attaining absence of self? Escaping the word requires sila & anatta. A person with sila & anatta can take care of sick mother or father.

Another Christian sounding notion.

Angulimala became an Arahant due to abstaining from killing and particularly due to obtaining a special protection granted to the Buddha by the King. If not for the Buddha, Angulimala would have been executed by the King; similar to how Jesus of Nazareth was executed on a cross with two other criminals.

Escape from the world, love, compassion, patience are not sila. Without sila - love, compassion, patience, anatta, will simply cause confusion. I read Snp 1.8 says love is for practitioners who are already skilled in sila. MN 6 all Buddhist attainments are dependent upon sila.

I know evangelizing Christians who suffer badly. They phone me to talk about all their problems. They are not free at all.

The New Testament (Matthew 25:31-46) has written Jesus taught salvation is earned. Idiosyncratic ideas divorced from scripture are not valid. The New Testament (Matthew 19:15-17) has written Eternal Life requires following the moral precepts (sila).

36

The issue is that there can be clinging to a doctrine of self.
But every person, even a Buddha has a sense of self. One cannot live without.
But people do not accept the sutta’s in which even a Buddha shows he has a sense of self.

I also see this with my mother. If one literally sees the body as not me that is not wisdom, that is sickness. The clue is: an awakened mind can just as easy identify as drop it but an unenlightment cannot.

Those are all theories, i feel. But reality is: people who really have to take care of vulnerable people, for example those who take care of people with Alzheimer, those tenders are not without boundaries. Their energy is limited, there physical capacities, there mental capactities etc. That is all very normal.

And it is very easy for one who does not have this care to pretent their capacities are endless…sure…

Well, let them for some months take care of people with Alzheimer. The dream of endless capacities will vanish immediately. No doubts about this. I am quit sure they flee the whole situation and will shout out…BUT THIS IS NOT MY KAMMA!

It are always people who do not have that practical care for others who can live in a dreamworld of endless patience, endless love, etc. But people who really care know that patience, love, compassion, wisdom…that are almost impossible things, ideals …one only fails in that…day in day out.

Maybe in some forest, far away from responsibilities, far away from practical care for others, one can dream about endless patience, endless love…but what does it all mean?

37

Two parents are ten aggregates. Not self. SN 22.59

Buddha has no sense of self. Only convention. SN 1.25.

But people do not accept the sutta’s in which Buddha says only speaks worldly conventions of self to the world. SN 1.25

‘I’ view ‘my’ mother as an ‘old woman’. When she is delirious due to various old age issues, the view is ‘poor old woman’, ‘how this life is awful (dukkha)’. The cause of caring for parents is gratitude rather than self.

1 Like
38

AN 2.32 AN2.33

Gratitude

“Monks, I will teach you the level of a person of no integrity and the level of a person of integrity. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, “Now what is the level of a person of no integrity? A person of no integrity is ungrateful & unthankful. This ingratitude, this lack of thankfulness, is advocated by rude people. It is entirely on the level of people of no integrity. A person of integrity is grateful & thankful. This gratitude, this thankfulness, is advocated by civil people. It is entirely on the level of people of integrity.”

“I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents.

If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents.

Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world.

But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one’s mother & father.”

1 Like
39

I recommend you to read No Self, No Problem: Awakening to Our True Nature - Anam Thubten - Google Books

It has the capacity to produce some moments of no self experience where the bare senses are not disturbed by the sense of self. Those moments are wonderful. Don’t worry, the sense of self does come back. It’s an experiment for you to see which one is more happy, living with a sense of self or without and to let you see that people can function normally, and even better without a sense of self. Experience it on your own, don’t just reply: It is my gut feeling that it is impossible to have no sense of self.

Try.

40

Dwelling in Emptiness it is certainly possible to experience no-Self. But it does require the acceptance of the Buddhist philosophy of no-Self. If one doesn’t apply the known Wisdom taught by Siddhartha to their Path, where are they known to succeed? Not-Self and no-Self are the same thing explained in slightly different ways. Differing upon this subject, or accepting some Advaita-Vedantish notion of Self (and I agree that it is extensive philosophy, but the Buddha came to Teach us the Highest Dhamma), does not respect the profound insight and foresight the Buddha had in his Wisdom that moved the Ages into profound insight. We have to respect the Supreme Perfect Enlightenment of Gautama Buddha.