Sila admired by the noble ones

What sources in EBTs that describe more details of the nature of sila maintained by the trainee disciple (stream-winner and above) ?

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I think the sila may refer to the sila in the noble eightfold path: Right speech, Right action, Right livelihood:

Suttas in AN II 200 (21)ā€“204 (25) describe negative mental qualities which still may influence sekha:

Anger and hostility ā€¦ (201) Denigration and insolence ā€¦ (202) Envy and miserliness ā€¦ (203) Deceitfulness and craftiness ā€¦ (204) Moral shamelessness and moral recklessness.

They rather arenā€™t very admirable, perhaps element of admirableness here lies in honest admission and not shrinking from reality. :smiling_face:

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Are you talking about this?

Then Ānanda took Mahānāma by the arm, led him off to one side, and said to him, ā€œMahānāma, the Buddha has spoken of the ethics, immersion, and wisdom of a trainee; and the ethics, immersion, and wisdom of an adept. What is the ethics of a trainee? Itā€™s when a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the monastic code, conducting themselves well and seeking alms in suitable places. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules theyā€™ve undertaken. This is called the ethics of a trainee.

AN 3.73

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You will find most of the relevant ones quoted and discussed on pages 24-27 of an old Dhamma Wheel thread, ā€œSotapanna and Five Preceptsā€. Rather than copying and pasting the content (which is a bit messy on my not-terribly-smart smartphone) Iā€™ll just post the link to page 24.

here!

See in particular the posts from the member Doodoot and me.

Also, on page 27 I give a summary of the three ways that ariyakkantasīla gets treated in the commentaries.

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Thank you so much Bhante. Itā€™s a very informative discussion

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Namo Buddhaya!

People who say that sotapanna cannot break the five precepts do so with this for evidence

As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream-entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: ā€˜Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!ā€™

"Now, which five forms of fear & animosity are stilled?

"When a person takes life, then with the taking of life as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from taking life, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from taking life, that fear & animosity is thus stilled.

"When a person stealsā€¦ engages in illicit sexā€¦ tells liesā€¦

"When a person drinks distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, then with the drinking of distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness as a requisite condition, he produces fear & animosity in the here & now, produces fear & animosity in future lives, experiences mental concomitants of pain & despair; but when he refrains from drinking distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, he neither produces fear & animosity in the here & now nor does he produce fear & animosity in future lives, nor does he experience mental concomitants of pain & despair: for one who refrains from drinking distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness, that fear & animosity is thus stilled. Vera Sutta: Animosity

ā€œMendicants, the killing of living creatures, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is a short life span.

Stealing, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is loss of wealth.

Sexual misconduct, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is rivalry and enmity.

Lying, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is false accusations.

Divisive speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is being divided against friends.

Harsh speech, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is hearing disagreeable things.

Talking nonsense, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is that no-one takes what you say seriously.

Taking alcoholic drinks that cause negligence, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is madness.ā€ SuttaCentral

One asserts that breaking the five precepts leads to hell and therefore a trainee cannot do it.

This is refuted by explaining a few things

"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment

ā€¦
ā€œSuppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into a small amount of water in a cup. What do you think? Would the water in the cup become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?ā€

ā€œYes, lord. Why is that? There being only a small amount of water in the cup, it would become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink.ā€

ā€œNow suppose that a man were to drop a salt crystal into the River Ganges. What do you think? Would the water in the River Ganges become salty because of the salt crystal, and unfit to drink?ā€

ā€œNo, lord. Why is that? There being a great mass of water in the River Ganges, it would not become salty because of the salt crystal or unfit to drink.ā€

"In the same way, there is the case where a trifling evil deed done by one individual [the first] takes him to hell; and there is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by the other individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.

'Now, a trifling evil act done by what sort of individual takes him to hell? There is the case where a certain individual is undeveloped in the body, [2] undeveloped in virtue, undeveloped in mind [i.e., painful feelings can invade the mind and stay there], undeveloped in discernment: restricted, small-hearted, dwelling with suffering. A trifling evil act done by this sort of individual takes him to hell.

Lonaphala Sutta: The Salt Crystal

This is the gist of it.

Taking alcoholic drinks that cause negligence, when cultivated, developed, and practiced, leads to hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. The minimum result it leads to for a human being is madness.ā€

Even If ordinary man was to go at it drinking much, one is not certain to lose human state. How much less if one drinks only one time and that whilst being moderately accomplished in development?

I think everything else has been discussed earlier.

Fwiw i think the meaning of the word ā€œsilaā€ is close to ā€˜strength of characterā€™ and the english ā€˜virtueā€™ captures the meaning well enough.

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Thanks Notez, however if we can say that the noble disciples never breaks five precepts it is not necessary for one to restate that he is incapable of doing the 6 grave misconducts. Isnā€™t it?

Namo Buddhaya!

To an extent.

The whole mythology of sotapanna canā€™t drink is a rather baseless & unreasonable assertion popularized by some commentators. Now many monks have commited to this, itā€™s awkward and there are many problems because of it.

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