Simple epistemology

Can someone please remind me- what sutta(s) where the Buddha lists the reasons for belief / practice ;

  • direct experience,
  • faith,
  • tradition
  • logic,
  • good report

, etc)?

And…

Wasn’t the conclusion to the matter (in at least the one I’m half recalling) that you should try acting according to various frameworks and believe whatever actually works (decreases suffering, unwholesomeness?), taking that framework as foundation for future action / research?

Recommend good resources on this topic? :thinking:
What i mean by good…
How does the study of buddhist epistemology break down? Who are the more descriptive, less polemic contributors? Is there a “for dummies?” I’m more interested in practice than philosophy.

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“Master Gotama, in regard to the ancient brahmanic hymns that have come down through oral transmission, preserved in the collections, the brahmins come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ What does Master Gotama say about this?”

  1. “How then, Bhāradvāja, among the brahmins is there even a single brahmin who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”—“No, Master Gotama.”

“How then, Bhāradvāja, among the brahmins is there even a single teacher or a single teacher’s teacher back to the seventh generation of teachers who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”—“No, Master Gotama.”

“How then, Bhāradvāja, the ancient brahmin seers, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns, whose ancient hymns that were formerly chanted, uttered, and compiled, the brahmins nowadays still chant and repeat, repeating what was spoken and reciting what was recited—that is, Ạ̣haka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, and Bhagu883—did even these ancient brahmin seers say thus: ‘We know this, we see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong’?”—[170] “No, Master Gotama.”

“So, Bhāradvāja, it seems that among the brahmins there is not even a single brahmin who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ And among the brahmins there is not even a single teacher or a single teacher’s teacher back to the seventh generation of teachers, who says thus: ‘I know this, I see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ And the ancient brahmin seers, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns…even these ancient brahmin seers did not say thus: ‘We know this, we see this: only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ Suppose there were a file of blind men each in touch with the next: the first one does not see, the middle one does not see, and the last one does not see. So too, Bhāradvāja, in regard to their statement the brahmins seem to be like a file of blind men: the first one does not see, the middle one does not see, and the last one does not see. What do you think, Bhāradvāja, that being so, does not the faith of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?”

  1. “The brahmins honour this not only out of faith, Master Gotama. They also honour it as oral tradition.”

“Bhāradvāja, first you took your stand on faith, now you speak of oral tradition. There are five things, Bhāradvāja, that may turn out in two different ways here and now. What five? Faith, approval, oral tradition, reasoned cogitation, and reflective acceptance of a view.884 These five things may turn out in two different ways here and now. Now something may be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be fully accepted out of faith, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. Again, [171] something may be fully approved of…well transmitted…well cogitated…well reflected upon, yet it may be empty, hollow, and false; but something else may not be well reflected upon, yet it may be factual, true, and unmistaken. [Under these conditions] it is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’”885

  1. “But, Master Gotama, in what way is there the preservation of truth?886 How does one preserve truth? We ask Master Gotama about the preservation of truth.”

“If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.887

“If a person approves of something…if he receives an oral tradition…if he [reaches a conclusion based on] reasoned cogitation…if he gains a reflective acceptance of a view, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My reflective acceptance of a view is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way too, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.”

  1. “In that way, Master Gotama, there is the preservation of truth; in that way one preserves truth; in that way we recognise the preservation of truth. But in what way, Master Gotama, is there the discovery of truth? In what way does one discover truth? We ask Master Gotama about the discovery of truth.”

  2. “Here, Bhāradvāja …

MN 95

Great question! What are the ways of knowing the truth according to the Teacher? As @knigarian pointed out MN 95 says the five:

  1. Faith - may turn out correct and may turn out false, not sensible to come to a categorical conclusion
  2. Endorsement - may turn out correct and may turn out false, not sensible to come to a categorical conclusion
  3. Oral transmission - may turn out correct and may turn out false, not sensible to come to a categorical conclusion
  4. Reasoned train of thought - may turn out correct and may turn out false, not sensible to come to a categorical conclusion
  5. Acceptance of a view after deliberation - may turn out correct and may turn out false, not sensible to come to a categorical conclusion

Seems the Teacher according to this sutta did not endorse saying one knows something in any of these five ways?

:pray:

One knows that one doesn’t know. One doesn’t mistake one’s faith for knowledge. [Certainly I don’t know well, what I know, but at least I totally don’t know what I don’t know. (I quote from memory NGD)]

Where, then, does the question come from? What is its place of origin? It is clear that it does not come from absolute knowledge. When God asks Adam ‘Where are you?’ his question is purely rhetorical. Nor can it come from an absolute lack of knowledge, for if you do not know that you do not know, you do not even want to know. The source of the question is the knowledge of negativity: you know that you do not know, you know what ‘to know’ means and you know that you do not know what you are asking. And so I come to the second part of my talk.

The Role of the Socratic Question

Wishing to know what exactly the oracle meant in stating that he, Socrates, was the wisest man in Athens, Socrates begins an inquiry. He asks; he does not state anything because he does not know anything. And what exactly does he ask about? Τὰ μέγιστα, the most important things, the things that count most in our lives, the things that ‘weigh’, the problems whose solution determines the way we live our lives.

Socrates asks the people who claim to know the answers, and has a revelation of general pseudo-science, of the illusion of knowledge—in Greek, δοξοσοφία, ‘illusory knowledge’. The questions Socrates asks begin with a denunciation of the inconsistency of the answers received and of the contradictions into which those who give them fall. The question thus makes visible their basically ridiculous position: they do not know that they do not know. Look, I am asking you, and where you thought you knew, you do not know. Of course I do not know either, but I have no illusion that I do know. I, Socrates, do not live in the night of illusion. The ridiculous state of those who ‘do not know that they do not know’, which is revealed by the question, is a veritable vice: πονηρία in Greek. Their situation is serious: for Socrates, it is a massive failing. Not to know yourself is a vice, while to know yourself is a virtue (ἀρετή).

However in revealing the wide discrepancy between the illusion of knowledge and the reality of lack of knowledge, the question opens up the possibility of a cleansing of the mind and thus has a paideic, educational function. It gives the mind an open field, cleansed of the illusion of knowledge; it brings about the elimination, the expulsion of illusion: ἐκβολὴ τῆς δόξης.

The word translated as ‘elimination’ or ‘expulsion’, ἐκβολή, has a technical sense, and refers to a cathartic ritual of medical origin: purificatio mentis is a purgative method extended to the mind, a treatment for mental constipation. This can be clearly seen in the following passage from the Sophist, 230b–d:

The people who are being examined see this, get angry at themselves, and become calmer toward others. They lose their inflated and rigid beliefs about themselves that way, and no loss is pleasanter to hear or has a more lasting effect on them. Doctors who work on the body think it can’t benefit from any food that’s offered to it until what’s interfering with it from inside is removed. The people who cleanse the soul, my young friend, likewise think the soul, too, won’t get any advantage from any learning that’s offered to it until someone shames it by refuting it, removes the opinions that interfere with learning, and exhibits it cleansed, believing that it knows only those things that it does know, and nothing more.

This ἔλεγχος, this ‘refutation’, which can only be obtained by submission to an interrogative treatment, is, at the level of the mind, ‘the principal and most important kind of cleansing’. The mind that has not gone through this test—be it that of the king of Persia—remains ἀκάθαρτον (‘uncleansed’, ‘dirty’) and ἀπαίδευτον (‘uneducated’) (230e). The mind that has not known this refutation, that has not been shaken, that has not been shown its own ignorance, has evaded the paideic process. Those who make speeches—like the Sophists—and hear only themselves, who refuse to enter the intersubjective space of refutation based on the question, will remain ‘sick,’ i.e. ‘uneducated.’ But how exactly does refutation follow from questioning? By putting together the affirmations you make as you reply to questions. It is only then that your contradictions are revealed and it becomes clear that your knowledge is an illusion. The worst thing is to try and bluff your way through, to refuse to let your contradictions be revealed. Of course, when I talk of putting someone’s affirmations together, I do not mean the affirmations that someone makes in a particular field, but the totality of the affirmations that make up someone’s life. It is a matter of the fatal incoherence of a life, of the fact that the life of each one of us is an incoherent discourse.

That is why Socrates believes that we need καθαίροντες, ‘purifiers’ or ‘practitioners of the purgative method’:

They cross-examine someone when he thinks he’s saying something though he’s saying nothing. Then, since his opinions will vary inconsistently, these people will easily scrutinize them. They collect his opinions together during the discussion, put them side by side, and show that they conflict with each other at the same time on the same subjects in relation to the same things and in the same respects. (Sophist, 230b)

So what has the question now become? No more and no less than something that points directly to the human condition: in disillusioning us, it shows us that in the great, important problems we are on unsure ground. To be between knowing and not knowing is the human condition that makes the question possible. And the question, in its turn, points us to the same condition.
However, I repeat: not every question, but only one that goes down to the origin of the problem, that aims at a global knowledge, a question on which our entire lives depend: what is good and what is evil, what is right and what is wrong? This sort of question, which assumes a super-human knowledge, inevitably leads into the zone of unknowing.

Such a question places one in an interval. We are ‘interval beings’ precisely because we ask questions of this kind. And in this case, the status of the question derives from the human condition itself, which is one of interval: between knowing and unknowing, between good and evil, between life and death.

We might think that this way of thinking is merely historical, that it is limited to the figure of Socrates, and is of no more concern to us. However the same problem faces us today. The man of science, the technician in a broad sense, lives in the same ambiguity in which Socrates’ partners in dialogue lived. He is at once expert and ignorant. The knowledge that he has about a certain field goes hand in hand with his lack of knowledge about the rest, and likewise with his tendency to extrapolate from what he knows beyond what is permissible. From this point of view, we are no further on today: in the ‘great problems’, we are just as prone to get lost as in the time of Socrates.

Why does this happen? Why has the ‘advance of knowledge’ not placed us in a more favourable situation than 2500 years ago? For the simple reason that technology has never had any way of tackling the problem of good and evil; indeed it is likely to obscure it. For in knowing something, it thinks it knows everything. The purely technical way of looking at things makes impossible the framework in which the question of good and evil is raised. Science and technology give you the rules by which something works, but they do not tell you when, in the way it is used, evil appears in place of good. Good and evil depend on how exactly you use something, and science and technology are incapable of teaching you anything like that. For the price of specialization in one field is lamentable ignorance of other things.

The question that led to the essential condition of ‘knowing that I do not know’ set European thinking on solid ground. The essential thing is that I should have no illusions. Any method must have its origin here: starting from the fact that he knows that he does not know, man builds something, goes back to zero and fi nds his way forward. This is what Socrates originated. And where the mind refuses to be exposed and does not build on initial ignorance, there appears dogmatism.

from the book The World We Live In by Alexandru Dragomir

Yeah, sometimes I doubt even this :joy: Maybe it is best to say that I take it on faith that I know very little so as to preserve the truth. :pray:

Don’t be so humble. After all you know that sickness isn’t dukkha.:slightly_smiling_face:

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Thank you for this! It quite literally had me laughing out loud. In my arrogance I confess I also claim to know that the five aggregates aren’t literally burning chaff! :joy: :pray: