Some Thoughts on the 'Thought Experiment' :)

[anon29387788]

Dear Ayya @vimalanyani

I was going over an old thread you’d started with some questions in mind. I was going to ask a simpler question (as you know ) but then decided on a few different questions and the odd comment. I know you won’t mind.

@vimalanyani

In the early suttas there are many descriptions of “heightened virtue” for monastics, most prominently repeated over and over again in the gradual training. These are ungendered, fairly comprehensive, and are at least as early, if not earlier, than the patimokkhas. To a large extend, these passages are also applicable universally, independent of culture and modern developments. And it would be quite easy to recite these passages on uposatha days, and confess transgressions of the rules mentioned there.

I was originally going to ask what the specific rules are…but you’ve already answered that here:

@vimalanyani

Here’s the passage on morality from the gradual training, p. ex. at MN27:

“Having thus gone forth and possessing the monastic’s training and way of life, abandoning the killing of living beings, they abstain from killing living beings; with rod and weapon laid aside, conscientious, merciful, they abide compassionate to all living beings. Abandoning the taking of what is not given, they abstain from taking what is not given; taking only what is given, expecting only what is given, by not stealing they abide in purity. Abandoning incelibacy, they observe celibacy, living apart, abstaining from the vulgar practice of sexual intercourse.

“Abandoning false speech, they abstain from false speech; they speak truth, adhere to truth, are trustworthy and reliable, persons who are no deceivers of the world. Abandoning malicious speech, they abstain from malicious speech; they do not repeat elsewhere what they have heard here in order to divide [those people] from these, nor do they repeat to these people what they have heard elsewhere in order to divide [these people] from those; thus they are persons who reunite those who are divided, promoters of friendships, who enjoy concord, rejoice in concord, delight in concord, speakers of words that promote concord. Abandoning harsh speech, they abstain from harsh speech; they speak such words as are gentle, pleasing to the ear, and loveable, as go to the heart, are courteous, desired by many and agreeable to many. Abandoning gossip, they abstain from gossip; they speak at the right time, speak what is fact, speak on what is good, speak on the Dhamma and the Discipline; at the right time they speak such words as are worth recording, reasonable, moderate, and beneficial.

“They abstain from injuring seeds and plants. They practise eating only one meal a day, abstaining from eating at night and outside the proper time. They abstain from dancing, singing, music, and theatrical shows. They abstain from wearing garlands, smartening themselves with scent, and embellishing themselves with unguents. They abstain from high and large couches. They abstain from accepting gold and silver. They abstain from accepting raw grain. They abstain from accepting raw meat. They abstain from accepting sex and marriage partners. They abstain from accepting men and women slaves. They abstain from accepting goats and sheep. They abstain from accepting fowl and pigs. They abstain from accepting elephants, cattle, horses, and mares. They abstain from accepting fields and land. They abstain from going on errands and running messages. They abstain from buying and selling. They abstain from false weights, false metals, and false measures. They abstain from accepting bribes, deceiving, defrauding, and trickery. They abstain from wounding, murdering, binding, brigandage, plunder, and violence.

“They become content with robes to protect their body and with almsfood to maintain their stomach, and wherever they go, they set out taking only these with them. Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden, so too the monastics become content with robes to protect their body and with almsfood to maintain their stomach, and wherever they go, they set out taking only these with them. Possessing this aggregate of noble virtue, they experience within themselves a bliss that is blameless.

There is also p. ex. the passage on morality from DN1, sections 1.8-1.28, which goes into more detail.

As a rough guess, how often do you think these are repeated in EBT Suttas? Sorry that might be a tough question!

I liked that the following texts are EBTS:

@vimalanyani

The Buddha allowed for minor rules to be abandoned after his passing (DN16), and stated that disputes about livelihood and patimokkha should be considered as mere trifles (MN104). So in adapting rules that no longer fit today’s society, we would be following the Buddha’s instructions. These questions don’t imply the the monastics who discuss them are not serious about vinaya. In fact, it is because they are very serious about vinaya, that they are concerned with its problems and try to find solutions that are within the scope of what is covered by the EBTs.

[my emphasis]

And there’s this, which seems, in accordance with the “legal” side of things to demonstrate that there is a precedence for going to an even earlier text for your rules. Would these be considered “even earlier” and are there other cases where earlier cases are used “legally”?

@vimalanyani

Since every Buddhist monastery is independent and local sanghas make their own choices, any monastery could decide on its own to switch over to keeping these rules instead. There would be no need to wait for any universal approval.

[my emphasis]

@vimalanyani

Of course, most monasteries would still prefer to keep the standard patimokkha, so practitioners could freely choose where they would like to ordain and what method would suit them best.

Nice…I love this about how the Buddha set things up.

---

Right, I’ve asked Ayya and it’s the Q & A section.

So…if you want to post your ‘answers’ please back them up with EBT references and, as always, keep this a friendly thread.

Please don’t expect any responses from me either as I’m busy with other matters and won’t be on D&D for a number of days…

[vimalanyani]

@anon29387788

As a rough guess, how often do you think these are repeated in EBT Suttas? Sorry that might be a tough question!

I really don’t know how often that passage I quoted appears in the suttas altogether. Quite often.
In the Majjhima Nikaya, it appears in MN 27, 38, 51, 60, 76, 79, 94, 101. I don’t have the time to search all the Nikayas, especially because this passage is so common that it is often abbreviated / elided and thus hard to find.

@anon29387788

And there’s this, which seems, in accordance with the “legal” side of things to demonstrate that there is a precedence for going to an even earlier text for your rules. Would these be considered “even earlier” …?

I’m not sure if I fully understand your question. Are you asking if the sutta texts of the gradual training are earlier than the bhikkhuni patimokkha rules? Then yes, definitely. Significant parts of the bhikkhuni patimokkha are not even EBTs. The variance between schools is quite large, and clearly stuff was added after the sectarian splits.
It’s probably even earlier than the bhikkhu patimokkha. The gradual training must have been around since the earliest time of the Buddha’s teaching, but the patimokkha rules were only laid down one by one after the early days, when the sangha started to decline.
If this is not what you were asking, please try again.

@anon29387788

are there other cases where earlier cases are used “legally”?

Well, in modern times, bhikkhuni ordination by bhikkhus only - instead of double ordination - is a case where an earlier version of ordination was used to perform a legally valid sangha act.
Or straight after the Buddha’s parinibbana, when the first council had recited the suttas and vinaya, a senior monk declared that he would continue to follow the rules as he remembered them - not as the council said -, which was apparently an earlier version that the Buddha had changed afterwards.

[anon29387788]

Thank you!!! I feel my questions have been more than answered.

@vimalanyani

Or straight after the Buddha’s parinibbana, when the first council had recited the suttas and vinaya, a senior monk declared that he would continue to follow the rules as he remembered them - not as the council said -, which was apparently an earlier version that the Buddha had changed afterwards.

Thank you for this!! It is another thing that I was utterly ignorant off. Where would I find this in the EBTs?

@vimalanyani

If this is not what you were asking, please try again.

That’s extremely kind of you.

[vimalanyani]

@anon29387788

Where would I find this in the EBTs?

If you define EBTs as texts from the Buddha’s lifetime, then you won’t find it. The first council happened straight after the Parinibbana…
But you can find it in the vinaya text about the first council, Culavagga 11:
(Scroll down until you see the heading “On the higher penalty”. It’s the paragraph just above that.)

Now at that time the venerable Purāṇa was walking on almstour in the Southern Hills together with a large Order of monks, with at least five hundred monks. Then the venerable Purāṇa, having stayed in the Southern Hills for as long as he found suiting, after the monks who were elders had chanted dhamma and discipline, approached Rājagaha, the Bamboo Grove, the squirrels’ feeding place, and the monks who were elders; having approached, having exchanged friendly greetings with the monks who were elders, he sat down at a respectful distance. The monks who were elders spoke thus to the venerable Purāṇa as he was sitting down at a respectful distance:
“Reverend Purāṇa, dhamma and discipline have been chanted by monks who are elders. Submit yourself to this chanting.”
“Your reverences, well chanted by the elders are dhamma and discipline, but in that way that I heard it in the Lord’s presence, that I received it in his presence, in that same way will I bear it in mind.”

[anon29387788]

That’s awesome Thanks very much!