I don’t know who gave that as a generic answer, but it is spicific, in this question.
There is functonal MRI evidence of mindfulness making physical changes in the brain and possibly some fMRI evidence of jhana as well. If there were stream entrants willing to try there maybe some changes to the medical prefrontal cortex where the ‘self’ is introduced into our experiences. This evidence would be different from that applied to theoretical physics as what is being measured are very different. The subjective elements of stream entry might require a ‘softer’ more qualitative approach. Experiences have a different methodology and a burden of proof in scientific research than the ‘harder’ quantitative research. Similarly with behavioural elements of morality, generosity etc. However my suspicion is that the glimpse of Nibbana would require a level of clarity of fMRI scanning that wouldn’t be currently available. This would be the gold standard test while everything else would be proxies.
Maybe it would motivate someone to strive more and gives some indication as to what areas of practice to focus on (in terms of fetters). Some veriation in once-returners in their level of sexual activity is recorded but these are mostly in the field of the knowledge of the Buddhas and is said to be imponderable for others.
There is a truth that we can find looking into our mind and that is indisputable: anicca for example, or the bliss arising as a consequence of fixing our mind gently to an object. This is truly a ‘come & see’…
There are different registers in the suttas, and so far all I have seen is that sotapatti falls into the register of faith.
Obviously, perhaps more, to me and I have attempted to be nuanced about it always. Of course you are right in that for most people it will be a matter of faith. There is a description of the view from the mountain outpost- if you have some faith in the path you might see it for yourself. I agree there is little mileage in it if everyone keeps it just to themselves. I don’t intend to answer questions endlessly without adequate reason, but enough for someone to know the path there, which I have done all this time. Its only for the sake of Dhamma dana and it may not be convincing to everyone, which would be perfectly understandable.
To know is one, and to both know and see, is another. To have faith is yet another. Faith (saddha) eventually leads to knowing and seeing (janati… phassati).
At Sāvatthī. “Mendicants, the eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. The ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind are impermanent, perishing, and changing. Someone who has faith and confidence in these principles is called a follower by faith. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry.
Someone who accepts these principles after considering them with a degree of wisdom is called a follower of the teachings. They’ve arrived at inevitability regarding the right path, they’ve arrived at the level of the good person, and they’ve transcended the level of the bad person. They can’t do any deed which would make them be reborn in hell, the animal realm, or the ghost realm. They can’t die without realizing the fruit of stream-entry. Someone who understands and sees these principles is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.” SN25.1
To say it in another way, the path of stream entry is due to a holistic development in the faculties of virtue, faith, wisdom etc. and not a random occurrence according to EBTs.
Through samadhi, soon after experiencing unconditional happiness, the mind is free from bondage, but still there is suffering, from feeling, body, soul. So one will keep on meditate to be happy everyday. Then Having found this 10fetters from google and then this explain a lot, really. One can pick on next fetters kamaraga, vyapada. Long story short , soon after taking these off, one doesnt need that happiness meditation so much anymore.
So it is useful to have a map. To know which stage, and what’s next.
And still on time counting since that meditation which one can lost sexual attachment, lost interest for games, films, entertainment. Still doing reality check, real or false enlightment.
Mostly for householder meditation aiming for nirvana stop at experiencing anatta, as many ppl said its not good for householder. Likely to provoke new bad karma in family. Since time only serve as concept for the one.
Sorry for my bad english.
Hey guys, yesterday I realized sotapatti, yippie!! And that’s how I did it, and that’s what happened”
As soon as someone did this to his neighborhood, ppl just being sceptical all the time.
Over time He realized not all people want nirvana,
For those learning claiming would make people envy, since some practice years.
He’d just feed the craving from his feeling by doing claiming, ego arise etc, it makes him suffers too.
Seeing how his perspective of life change become so much signifcant that not claiming would just fine.
For others would just identify him by; ‘oh he lost his anger, awesome’
But inside of him, no more suffering from the mind, feeling and body is indescribeable (He still suffers from his citta though, not arahant yet) - the pain is inevitable but the suffering is gone.
Thanks for that. Maybe you are willing to help investigating a bit further?
When I read of a claim “I attained x (jhana, stream-entry…)” I can’t help but pulling it into my unenlightened world. I develop some sort of opinion. To you it’s not an opinion but a reality.
What I’m interested in is: Does it seem to you to be a very private reality? Or is it somehow entering the social realm? Are you for example better able to influence people regarding dhamma-questions?
So maybe sotapatti is just for one-self, for gaining faith in the map and the dhamma in general, but serves no purpose at all outside of one’s own mind. Is so, then indeed the claim of attainment would be pointless.
Or: the attainment is observable, and one would have a more reliable teacher to go to.
I think it fits here to quote the first interaction of the new Buddha after enlightenment (and after talking to Brahma). He met Ajıvaka Upaka and said
“…I am the Accomplished One in the world, I am the Teacher Supreme. I alone am a Fully Enlightened One…”
“When this was said, the Ajıvaka Upaka said: ‘May it be so, friend.’ Shaking his head, he took a bypath and departed. (MN 26).
These things are not ‘either or’. They both occur. I’ve always sought out people who ‘practice as they preach’. So the absence of fetters is observable, and I let that be my guide.
There is in my case usefulness in a mental map as far as placing oneself onto a steady path, but then craving for the “same map” becomes easily the distance or the story of not getting it, one put between oneself and experiences leading to the goal …
This man gave a well balanced response to the Buddha- elsewhere the Buddha says a person’s attainment (character-personality) can be known after associating with them for a long time and by a wise person.
I’d like to help you by investigating further for second fetter : vicikiccha - doubt
Surely this is from our mind, our thought, the reason why mind good at differentiating things bcoz it’s significant for our survival, but for everthing else we compare, striving for more, suffer more.
Will you ever start comparison if there’s no doubt in you?
The next question will be
Why doubt?
Fail to understand that life is full of uncertainty?
Making other people’s thought about you become yours?
Is your experience not real enough for you? Have you lived out your life over the cloud? Etc… till you find the source of your thought
“Private reality” , would you consider “Social reality” “Public reality” is the reality itself?
Why claim if pointless, then you must ask the right question : when claiming would be useful?
Do you think it’d helpful or ppl would consider your words more seriously if they believe you have gone beyond? Or motivate yourself to dig more?
For those stream enterer is kinda life without identity, doubt and fear. Dont you think it would make a significant change for someone like that?
Doubt has helped me in the past to improve my meditation and understanding of the dhamma. And it prevents me from believing a false teacher, running after a false or inaccurate teaching that doesn’t help me and losing years of my life with hope, disappointment and frustration. I see frustrated meditators a lot, and I don’t want to become like them.
That’s a difficult question. I don’t know what ‘real’ refers to. I neither live in a dream, nor in an ‘absolute reality’, so I don’t know.
With ‘private reality’ I mean that somethings is totally real for me, but has no way to be communicated to others. ‘Social reality’ is what can be communicated, e.g. ‘Watch out, there is a car!’, or ‘Focus on the breath’ or ‘confront your fears’ etc. etc.
I don’t know what ‘reality itself’ means.
That’s a good question, and I’m not sure I can answer that. A claim can arouse curiosity and investigation. A claim can be like advertising “If you want to be clean, buy this soap, it has these chemicals, is good for the skin, and kills bacteria…” If there was no advertising I probably would not come to have the choice to buy that soap at all.
Do you mean if the claim would make a difference? I don’t know - many people say if you’re a stream enterer then making a claim makes life more difficult because of trolls. I don’t buy that argument. What I can imagine is that as a stream-enterer one would want to become an arahant and dedicate one’s time to the practice and not waste time with fruitless discussions.
Contrary to many peoples’ opinion here, to me stream-entry is not well defined in the suttas. If there was a clear-cut definition that is not conceptual but would convey a mind-mechanism that I can understand, I could use it as a ‘ladder’ for my own development.
There is a thin line between doubt and sceptical. Sceptical would makes you want to know more, trying to find out, you move into the unknown lead you to the truth, it’s neither believing nor non-believing.
Doubt mostly unnecessary , misleading, not believing, comparing things for no purpose, leads to atheist. If you have doubt you wouldnt want to know more, you move with ignoring the truth and finding every proof to prove thats wrong. At least thats the meaning for me
This ‘I dont know’ is very important and keep you practising, what you gain, is your life perception shifted from what you already know and it is fruitful for you, you make it your new life reality since your perception change by seeing something beyond
Then your ‘private reality’ would be social reality if you meet some other stream enterers. Cheers lol
Yes reality is never real if we try to live life from our limited identity.
Im actually not saying the claim but being sotapanna , free from the mind
Yes lots of us been thinking over the cloud. Like attain this then you’d be a godlike person. We put stream enterr like angels ‘if u dont see an angel , u dont see a stream enterer’
These stages sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami are just preparation for your enlightment, less entanglement from your mind, feeling and body.
Dont overlook the promises that you’re not gonna be borned in this low lvl plane etc, it’s never intended for us to buy.
Admit we’ve only limited understanding of karma, never seen those eons of previous lives , not knowing yet if u gonna be borned again or not, or be born in a better plane.
Be there is this map or not, u’d get there eventually when you get in jhana then investigate ur suffering sources, maybe long turns.
To look into your own mind, how it keep producing identities, strengthen them, producing doubts, keep u striving for more by comparing, producing fears, keep u on with cheap hopes.
To look into your own feelings, how it keep u thirst for short term fulfilment
To look into your own body, how it keep you with its excessive need.
To be able to free from these absurdity, whether you enlightment or died trying, still this is a wonderful life to live in.
It’s not that easy at all, at least for me. Till now these fetters keep bumping on my door, but just know it everytime it appears that makes it dissapear right away.
It’s right when you said suttas is just texts not the buddha actually said. The fetters is not as simple as the explanation from suttas.
My view would be attaining jhana would be easier.
As a sotapatti have to be aware of own thought every moment, try not entering jhana in daily life and see how it comes out.
Maybe we can discuss further for the fetters :
first three are from the mind,
4th from feeling
5th from the body
6-10th from what you called you, some call this citta, some call your consciousness, some call your soul etc…
From the mind ; which keeps on creating illusions of identity, doubt and fear
Lets forget what suttas explanation for a while and see it , explain it from your own consciousness ;
Identity
Have you lose the identity hanging on you since the day you born? Including all you belongings which is just for strengthen your identity
Doubt
Do you still judging, comparing? Will you still suffering if you stop comparing?
Ritual/Rules attachment
Do you still have fears? Of those who you put above you and those from unexplain things who under you?
Try imagine someone without any identity, doubt and fear. Can you hurt someone like this?
Throw him to jail, can he suffer?
Take away his belongings, or even his families , can he suffer?
Remember he has no identity, not a husband, not a wife, not even a parent.
Or throw him to hell, can those fires and torturing can hurt someone like this?
Even to lose the first fetter one might took all his lifetime, how can attaining jhana is harder?
On first day someone took off his 3 fetters , he told his friend ; even if you can call god or demon to throw me now to hell, deepest one, I’d suffered no more. His friend look at him with sad eyes ‘wat happened? I’d always here to help if anything happen you know’ lol
Are you taking the terms still from the suttas?
Number 1. would be sakkāya-diṭṭhi, i.e. identity-view whereas you seem to refer to identity in general
How is your 3. connected to rituals/rites?
But if I forget the Pali terms then I would still be interested to know what you mean when you say “you”. It can be 1. the intentional movements of the mind 2. the unintentional, spontaneous movement.
So I could stop conscious willful comparing, but the spontaneous comparing of the mind is quite basic for consciousness - if the mind stopped comparing and seeing differences then we would end up in arupas, no?
To all three combined: How is this just sotapatti? To lose fear is described as for the arahant. Also to lose all identity sounds very demanding - what else is left to do?
I dont know about westerns, but here eastern, too many suttas, too many methods, too many sides, but some just like to stick to the core
For example : sakkaya ditthi - identity view . We just stick with identity, instead of the explanation throw away false identity, hold on right identity (its not even beyond duality like what buddha said)
You cant blame, its 2500 years ago, people, mind, feeling, body, avijja kicks in. Best option for us is to look for some same suttas, the core, the fact, not the opinions
See, what you call by “me” is a voice inside your head , but thats not really “me” anymore bcause
Your mind shaped by your neighborhood, community, your body, etc
Your feelings shaped by your thought and your body
Your body shaped by its need
Then left this “me” , you can call your conscousness/citta/the one who know shaped by previous lives, samsara, avijja
Without jhanas, its too difficult to identify the source of your every thought. Is it from your mind? Your feeling? Your body? Your citta? Mostly its a mix of them but which source, u got to investigate clearly.
A sotapanna, who beyond his own mind , still suffers from feelings and body, citta
If his family killed, he still suffers from his feeling, but not from mind, he would hurt with tears, but he wouldnt gone crazy bcause of the pain
As we know, suffering from your own mind can cause double triple even 100x from the real pain, isn it?
But arahant nothing can hurt him, not even anagami can be hurt by this.
Yes thats why it is said it’s dukha to be in this world. They keep coming like trains, but now you know where it comes from which stop you taking action for further absurdity. Overtime of practices it’ll gone as soon as it come out. Thats why a sotapanna wont doubt himself is a stream-enterer.
But what if he’s false awakening , lets see if we throw him in hell, if he still suffers then yes it’s false awakening (just jk) . Its not he wont be born in lower planes , but it’s the hell not willing to let someone like this to get in, what’s the fun of the torture? No more identity, doubt and fear. The punisher would be sad and leave the job. Please do think of these carefully.
Lets take a look at the time of buddha borned in india, hindu land, hundred thousands of gods and goddess, those who have lots of fear would go to temple. Some stupid rules would be set just for you to calm yourself down
Nowadays its only left us with this : we believing someone big sitting up there watching our every move
we believing supernatural, ghosts, etc ready to eat you everytime you enter the darkness.
Can you meditate with fear? Tracing the source of your fear will come out here eventually , if you have lost your identity of course.
Thats why as we’re on the right path, Never underestimate anyone/anything, not even ghosts, we might become just like them if we collect bad karmas.
Never overestimate anyone/anything, not even devas gods, or buddha himself, bcause worshiping him will never get you there.
Dont make transactional wishes with gods or ghosts too, just respect and pray for their happiness if you do really meet one.
And dont take my words, please look from within, if it doesnt fit you, you can always go back to suttas
-believe in buddha dharma sangha (as this is the other path for enlightment too, the devotion path, mahayana)
I found an excellent publication that summarizes the different textual variants regarding sotapatti, and the concerns connected with them:
Joy Manné (1995). Case Histories from the Pāli Canon, II: Sotāpanna, Sakadāgāmin, Anāgāmin, Arahat–The Four Stages Case History or Spiritual Materialism and the Need for Tangible Results. Journal of the Pali Text Society, 21, 35-128.
I came across a rather inspiring video recently posted on Dharmaoverground by Daniel Ingram:
My friend Richard, a lay practitioner with a remarkable retreat resume over a very long period of time, has died of lung cancer, passing at home while attended by his family.
He was a deep and profound practitioner though generally quiet and very humble about his remarkable attainments and insights.
Not long ago, we did a video interview in which he talks about what is like to be dying while yet quite awake:
The video is often quite humorous and light-hearted (in spite of the context). It starts off with a discussion of his experiences with lung cancer but then goes into quite a varied account of his practice and related experiences over the years (all kinds of topics are touched upon, e.g. Dhammaruwan and jhana at different points). It seemed like he was quite a low key kind of guy (not hugely liking attention) but he obviously had put in a huge amount of sitting time on the cushion. Wasn’t sure where to post this here, but I recalled that there was some stream entry experiences described in this rather old thread, and there’s one recounted in this video too. Dharmaoverground has a somewhat idiosyncratic understanding of such experiences, but the practice career described in the video seemed fairly classical and mainstream to me. Anyway, I thought it was a rather beautiful interview.
lol