Sotapatti - hugh, what is it good for?

Discussion
46

Maybe they don’t owe an explanation or a ‘coming-out’ to anyone? If they taught others it’s only a bonus. Like ‘sound is a thorn to the first jhana’ some Ariyas might not like to engage students because of the vexation that would cause. In the East the student seek out teachers. It’s not the duty of teachers to advertise their existence, or experiences. This way, I think, those not seeking in earnest and the most likely to display troublesome behaviour stay at superficial levels of the Dhamma, as they simply may not be ready to fully commit to the practice, immediately.

With metta

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47

No, I am saying that if you don’t follow the recipe, you won’t get the same result. If I give you a recipe for sourdough whole grain rye bread but you decide to use yeast instead of sourdough, then you don’t have rye so you use white flour instead, and so on then you won’t end up with the correct result - it isn’t sourdough whole grain rye bread no matter how many times you say it is. This is my point. The ebt’s are like a specific recipe and a stream winner is an interim result of following it.

I meant more in the sense of familiarity. If you have a choice between working with someone who is widely considered as awakened or a particularly good teacher and someone who is unknown to you at all then there is a choice to make. The unknown solitary individual may be the Buddha himself - but it would take some investigation.

I agree with Mat’s response.

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48

Suttas and parallels, please.

49

Thanks for clarifying! But I think if there was a clear recipe in the suttas people would have followed it all along. It sounds you have a concrete recipe in mind?

Thanks, I understand, but don’t agree. There might be good and recognized meditation teachers out there who can show that “do x and y and as z you’ll get a temporary piece of mind, a certain understanding”. But with sotapatti or arahanthip it’s a different matter. As long as there is no teacher with arahant-mass-production, a solitary but unknown practitioner (with books and internet of course) is not necessarily worse than an established and ‘recognized’ one. Conduct and quality of teaching should be the criteria, no?

Maybe we can collect the sotapatti-maggas available to us these days?

50

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk’s mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. AN4.170

This is the basic mechanism. The rest of the Noble Eightfold Path work together with the meditations, and contemplations. The outward manifestation might be different according to the teacher like their are different car manufacturers but all use the same internal combustion engine (if we set aside electrical engines for a moment). All the descriptions of stream entrants are qualities emerging from the same underlying process. These may vary from person to person to some degree but not massively I would think.

With metta

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51

Okay, but where is here sotapatti mentioned? yes, the fetters, but without further details an arahant could be meant or any other stage

52

Why is it a problem if other paths are workable?

53

If sotapatti is really a stage towards freedom, then sotapannas would most likely be found outside ordinary society, and might be quite unwilling to break their own practice just for the sake of somebody with a specific need for confirmations about practice. So a break with the world is in my opinion a natural result of getting what you want in this case

Lord Buddha has given us just a few leafs of all the leafs in the forest, and the reason for that was because he understood how easy we could distract ourselves with babbeling

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54

The problem is rather that exploitative religions have taken advantage of people for millennia, promising them rewards after life, or some other rewards system that somehow never really manifests. Or that they claim that they are super effective, make you rich, make you fly, make you healthy, beautiful, successful. And sure, it worked on ten-thousands of people out there - but you have to understand - these success-stories are very shy and prefer not to be in the public. And you can be one of them! Just stick to the system! etc…

No, sorry, I cannot subscribe to a set of promises of vague grandiosity without the spiritual system being as transparent and tangible as (supra)humanly possible. And so far I see in the three attainments a religious belief system and not much more.

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55

You can’t get to any other stage without going through sotapatti, -your ducks need to be lined up. ‘The Path is born’ phrase in the sutta above seems to indicate the point where Magga comes into being. This refers to sotapatti magga, and also where the Noble eightfold path (‘the stream, the stream…’) has been entered adequately enough to give rise to sotapatti magga. Removing of fetters start at this point, through to the higher attainments and to finally becoming an arahanth.

Also, who is Hugh? :wink:

with metta

56

I don’t want to appear as boasting here; but I think that one should always go farther than just throwing a sutta, as proof of a further personal interpretation. Kind of:
“This sutta says this, and consequently I believe this - so what I believe should be true”.

One should stick to facts in the suttas. As in:
“This sutta says this, and these suttas explain the context, and give the processes”.

So I repeat myself. As far as the path to sotapatti is concerned, see SN 22.122

A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.
:::::::
For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

And the factors of stream entry are:
Confirmed confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha + the virtues dear to the noble ones.
As well as SN 55.5 & 16 & 28, for instance.

But I did not stop at, throwing the SN 22.122 sutta - but I also explained later on that, understanding the inconstance of not-self, is to be found in losing the self view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi /sam-Ka-ya-diṭṭhi) (viz. the “this is mine” and “I am”) - particularly the “this is mine” + losing uncomprehendingness (as undiscerning) (~doubt ?) (vicikicchā).
Two of the most important lower fetters among the three required to be uprooted, to attain stream-entry.

You have two ways to attain that:
In jhana, or in anapanasati.
Viz. in the 3rd jhana (clearly discerning - sampajāno), or in the 13 th step of anapanasati (contemplating impermanence).

Read SN 54.13 for anapanasati.
I have given a cheatsheet on jhanas. I have even given a link to a Anapanasati/Jhana comparison.

So this is not an “I believe” or “I would think” kind of an approach from a sutta - but hard facts from the corresponding suttas.
And when I say “I suppose”, I usually mean that no other sutta (of which I would not be aware, ) could contradict these suttas’ facts.

One does not have to try to twist the suttas to its own view; but just to explain more clearly what a sutta might actually convey - with the help of other suttas (and a proper lexicography - meaning).

Is there some interest to remain on the nonsense “repeat” merry-go-round ?

Sorry to be that disagreeable - but I don’t agree.

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57

I don’t agree with your statement either. You have given one sutta and come to your own conclusion. This is the same thing you saying I am doing- which isn’t acceptable to you. I have been studying the dhamma for many decades and practicing as long. I don’t just say things because I feel like it. I say them with responsibility and a lot of knowledge that I don’t (and can’t) necessarily put into every single post I write here. I would have to write an entire visuddhimagga in every post to set out the context - look at sutta- not even the Buddha did that because it simply wasn’t practical. If anyone wants clarification and further detail I’m happy to provide it, but it will take time.

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58

Not just talking to you @Mat. I also adressed @Charlie with his “I believe”, with no suttas to back up his sayings. But I also adress most of the people on this forum, if for some few.

Now, concerning you personally, in the instance of this thread and of your last posts, I think that @Gabriel 's answer was proper. And that your answer to that, was quite fuzzy (although true). With no backing-up with suttas’s extracts.

Jhana 3 and the 13th step of anapanasati are not arahantship, anyway.
The path starts indeed here, as stream-entry. So be more precise in your first answer.
And give more details in your second. We might all be better of.

Also, you seem to be coming a long way Mat.
I remember you saying that “this is not mine”, (one of the sotapatti requirement), was not an important Buddhist concept.

You know:
“This is not, yours", because this is impermanent. And self is permanent. So it can’t be self; or even belonging to a (your) self.
Anicca as Impermanence and "Not-one’s-owness”.

“Not prominently”, you say !?!
But this is the basis of the path. The assurance of the right course (AN 10.103 /104). The assurance not to let that in , and appropriate it (viz. “what’s not yours”) .
No “bare attention” - No wrong course applies here.

This is where faith comes into play as stream-entry. Faith in this Dhamma.

59

Hi folks, just to remind, personally directed spikiness goes entirely against the community guidelines. Thanks.

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60

To dis-agree is dis-agree-able.

These are not spikes, but mere disagrements.

“Babelling” might be an (insignificant) spike. But certainly not saying to people, that they should avoid “thinking” personally - and instead give more references about texts; with their explanations.
Which is more in accord with the community guidelines.

It would prevent “spikes”; and censorship.

61

Why not to go back to the suttas, and more importantly to the ones that need no interpretation but clearly say “Want to be a stream-enterer? Then do x, y, z”

Yes, so SN 22.122 says “See the khandhas as anicca-dukkha…-anatta → and you might become a sotapanna” - that’s pretty straight-forward.

Do we find other recipes?

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I am currently travelling in some remote areas with limited data connection. Also my android phone does not correctly render the sutta central forum and I cannot post using it - thus I am left with having to periodically set up a laptop when I have a connection - thus the delay.

The arising of the Dhamma Eye (stream entry) is mentioned in several places. The basic definition is: ‘Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation’. I believe that from this it is clear that no conditioned state - no matter how subtle - meets the requirement. Only the unconditioned state does. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also has an article titled Into the Stream which provides additional references.

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63

Yes, take a look at AN 11.2 Cetanna Sutta. It shows how the 8-fold path naturally unfolds. This formula is found in many suttas - there are a few variations but they all follow the same basic idea.

Yes, I agree. I see no disagreement here between us.

Great idea. I spoke with a fellow a year ago or so who was collecting stream entry stories specifically from people following ebt types of practices with the intention of putting them into a book. Don’t know where that project is at.

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64

Are you sure? AN 11.2 doesn’t mention stream-entry (sotapanna/sotapatti), it results in going to the ‘far shore’ which is a synonym for nibbana.

Very interesting! Please keep us posted

65

SN 12.41 contains another formula:

1.don’t kill, steal, rape, lie, drug 2. confidence in Buddha-Dhamma-Sangha + ‘virtue’ 3. understanding of Dependent Origination

While 1 is possible, and 2 in an obscure way as well, 3 puts the bar quite high.

The recipe of SN 22.109 is

understand as they really are: origin, passing away, gratification, danger, escape re. the khandhas

SN 24.1 says:

1.abandon perplexity re. khandhas +1 being anicca-dukkha-changing & 2.abandon perplexity about suffering, its origin, cessation, path

SN 24.2 & SN 24.3 want you to

abandon self-view regarding the khandhas +1

and many many many more variations. So, we have a supermarket full of sotapanna-boxes. Which one are we going to choose? All of them? The most convenient one? The cheapest? Now, you can come up with your own theory - but it’s your own theory.

The suttas don’t say: ‘Just pick any’ or ‘they are equally right’ or ‘different teachers have different ideas’ or ‘your teacher will tell you which one is right for you’, or any other meta-position that will help you - each sutta pretends that it knows best.

So, do you have clarity now? If you do, your clarity is self-produced and doesn’t come from the suttas. What the suttas induce is perplexity. Or, if I have the choice between penetrating Dependent Origination and having faith in the Buddha for attaining Stream-Entry then, öööh, I pick faith.