Sotapatti - hugh, what is it good for?

Discussion
41

I personally take all of these descriptions of altered, elevated states with a grain of salt. It is not possible to get inside someone’s head to verify that they are really experiencing what they say they experience and think they experience. More importantly, I often suspect that if I were inside their heads, I wouldn’t describe the experiences they are having in the same way they do.

And regrettably, some people might be faking it - trying to live up to people’s expectations of the way an enlightened master is supposed to behave, and the kind of metaphysical lingo they are supposed to use.

We’ve had a few people visiting here who said they were arahants. I heard a podcast once where some guy was sure he had devised a drug that arahantized him and gave him the “enlightenment experience.” I wasn’t convinced in either case.

5 Likes
42

I think its possible that some people would be discouraged from practice because they would see the Arahant ideal as being too far removed from their experience - they couldn’t see themselves being able to attain it in this life.

43

This illustrates the problem of telling someone that you have an attachment (which you genuinely believe you have). How many people took these visitors at their word and had a genuinely beneficial experience based on this proclamation? Not many IMO. Alternatively think of monks like the Ajhans that we know who made 0 proclamations yet are beneficial to us daily.

With metta

2 Likes
44

I don’t see how that would be possible. Though I do believe that any level of jhana may be sufficient for stream entry to occur, there must still be the direct experience of cessation. Jhana is conditioned. As it is fabricated, it cannot be the basis for the insight that arises from the unconditioned. It would be like saying going really slow on a merry-go-round is the equivalent of not being on it.

I agree. But if you unpack that statement further, could not the differences be the result of fundamentally different practices? Meditation practices are by definition fabricated. If those practices are altered, is it not reasonable that the results of such a practice would also be different? If you take a look at Dharma Overground (which someone linked to) you will learn that the suttas are confused and that is why you need the commentaries, you cannot gain insight in the jhanas, stream entry is sort of a mind blip which you can learn to call up at will, and so on. If the practices and the result of those practices are redefined can we even compare them. Why would we expect them to have the same result?

I agree. But I am not talking about someone showing up on a forum and proclaiming their attainment. I am talking about well respected people that have a long history of practice and dedication. A fairly well known meditation teacher that I have a great deal of respect for once commented ‘if a person comes out and says they are awakened, they will be ripped to pieces’. Imagine if the Buddha were to go on a forum today and announce his awakening? Ripped to pieces.

1 Like
45

I don’t quite understand. Do you mean to say that there are different types of sotapannas? one would have faith, the other a nibbana-dip, the third an insight to the noble eightfold path, etc, and also their experiences would have little in common? It’s possible, but then the Buddha/suttas would have introduced an utterly confusing category. Again, possible, but just #notmybuddhism (which I admit is not an objective criterion)

This argument refers to social recognition. Why would someone practicing in solitude be less trustworthy than someone building a reputation by hanging around a monastery?

Which the Buddha did - ‘forum’ as you probably know is an open public space, and it seems from the suttas that the Buddha after awakening was not shy at all to tell that he was fully enlightened. If people after enlightenment are really more concerned about ‘their’ ‘peace of mind’ than the compassion to help others on the way, maybe there is not much to their enlightenment after all.

1 Like
46

Maybe they don’t owe an explanation or a ‘coming-out’ to anyone? If they taught others it’s only a bonus. Like ‘sound is a thorn to the first jhana’ some Ariyas might not like to engage students because of the vexation that would cause. In the East the student seek out teachers. It’s not the duty of teachers to advertise their existence, or experiences. This way, I think, those not seeking in earnest and the most likely to display troublesome behaviour stay at superficial levels of the Dhamma, as they simply may not be ready to fully commit to the practice, immediately.

With metta

1 Like
47

No, I am saying that if you don’t follow the recipe, you won’t get the same result. If I give you a recipe for sourdough whole grain rye bread but you decide to use yeast instead of sourdough, then you don’t have rye so you use white flour instead, and so on then you won’t end up with the correct result - it isn’t sourdough whole grain rye bread no matter how many times you say it is. This is my point. The ebt’s are like a specific recipe and a stream winner is an interim result of following it.

I meant more in the sense of familiarity. If you have a choice between working with someone who is widely considered as awakened or a particularly good teacher and someone who is unknown to you at all then there is a choice to make. The unknown solitary individual may be the Buddha himself - but it would take some investigation.

I agree with Mat’s response.

1 Like
48

Suttas and parallels, please.

49

Thanks for clarifying! But I think if there was a clear recipe in the suttas people would have followed it all along. It sounds you have a concrete recipe in mind?

Thanks, I understand, but don’t agree. There might be good and recognized meditation teachers out there who can show that “do x and y and as z you’ll get a temporary piece of mind, a certain understanding”. But with sotapatti or arahanthip it’s a different matter. As long as there is no teacher with arahant-mass-production, a solitary but unknown practitioner (with books and internet of course) is not necessarily worse than an established and ‘recognized’ one. Conduct and quality of teaching should be the criteria, no?

Maybe we can collect the sotapatti-maggas available to us these days?

50

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk’s mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. AN4.170

This is the basic mechanism. The rest of the Noble Eightfold Path work together with the meditations, and contemplations. The outward manifestation might be different according to the teacher like their are different car manufacturers but all use the same internal combustion engine (if we set aside electrical engines for a moment). All the descriptions of stream entrants are qualities emerging from the same underlying process. These may vary from person to person to some degree but not massively I would think.

With metta

1 Like
51

Okay, but where is here sotapatti mentioned? yes, the fetters, but without further details an arahant could be meant or any other stage

52

Why is it a problem if other paths are workable?

53

If sotapatti is really a stage towards freedom, then sotapannas would most likely be found outside ordinary society, and might be quite unwilling to break their own practice just for the sake of somebody with a specific need for confirmations about practice. So a break with the world is in my opinion a natural result of getting what you want in this case

Lord Buddha has given us just a few leafs of all the leafs in the forest, and the reason for that was because he understood how easy we could distract ourselves with babbeling

1 Like
54

The problem is rather that exploitative religions have taken advantage of people for millennia, promising them rewards after life, or some other rewards system that somehow never really manifests. Or that they claim that they are super effective, make you rich, make you fly, make you healthy, beautiful, successful. And sure, it worked on ten-thousands of people out there - but you have to understand - these success-stories are very shy and prefer not to be in the public. And you can be one of them! Just stick to the system! etc…

No, sorry, I cannot subscribe to a set of promises of vague grandiosity without the spiritual system being as transparent and tangible as (supra)humanly possible. And so far I see in the three attainments a religious belief system and not much more.

1 Like
55

You can’t get to any other stage without going through sotapatti, -your ducks need to be lined up. ‘The Path is born’ phrase in the sutta above seems to indicate the point where Magga comes into being. This refers to sotapatti magga, and also where the Noble eightfold path (‘the stream, the stream…’) has been entered adequately enough to give rise to sotapatti magga. Removing of fetters start at this point, through to the higher attainments and to finally becoming an arahanth.

Also, who is Hugh? :wink:

with metta

56

I don’t want to appear as boasting here; but I think that one should always go farther than just throwing a sutta, as proof of a further personal interpretation. Kind of:
“This sutta says this, and consequently I believe this - so what I believe should be true”.

One should stick to facts in the suttas. As in:
“This sutta says this, and these suttas explain the context, and give the processes”.

So I repeat myself. As far as the path to sotapatti is concerned, see SN 22.122

A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self.
:::::::
For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

And the factors of stream entry are:
Confirmed confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha + the virtues dear to the noble ones.
As well as SN 55.5 & 16 & 28, for instance.

But I did not stop at, throwing the SN 22.122 sutta - but I also explained later on that, understanding the inconstance of not-self, is to be found in losing the self view (sakkāya-diṭṭhi /sam-Ka-ya-diṭṭhi) (viz. the “this is mine” and “I am”) - particularly the “this is mine” + losing uncomprehendingness (as undiscerning) (~doubt ?) (vicikicchā).
Two of the most important lower fetters among the three required to be uprooted, to attain stream-entry.

You have two ways to attain that:
In jhana, or in anapanasati.
Viz. in the 3rd jhana (clearly discerning - sampajāno), or in the 13 th step of anapanasati (contemplating impermanence).

Read SN 54.13 for anapanasati.
I have given a cheatsheet on jhanas. I have even given a link to a Anapanasati/Jhana comparison.

So this is not an “I believe” or “I would think” kind of an approach from a sutta - but hard facts from the corresponding suttas.
And when I say “I suppose”, I usually mean that no other sutta (of which I would not be aware, ) could contradict these suttas’ facts.

One does not have to try to twist the suttas to its own view; but just to explain more clearly what a sutta might actually convey - with the help of other suttas (and a proper lexicography - meaning).

Is there some interest to remain on the nonsense “repeat” merry-go-round ?

Sorry to be that disagreeable - but I don’t agree.

1 Like
57

I don’t agree with your statement either. You have given one sutta and come to your own conclusion. This is the same thing you saying I am doing- which isn’t acceptable to you. I have been studying the dhamma for many decades and practicing as long. I don’t just say things because I feel like it. I say them with responsibility and a lot of knowledge that I don’t (and can’t) necessarily put into every single post I write here. I would have to write an entire visuddhimagga in every post to set out the context - look at sutta- not even the Buddha did that because it simply wasn’t practical. If anyone wants clarification and further detail I’m happy to provide it, but it will take time.

1 Like
58

Not just talking to you @Mat. I also adressed @Charlie with his “I believe”, with no suttas to back up his sayings. But I also adress most of the people on this forum, if for some few.

Now, concerning you personally, in the instance of this thread and of your last posts, I think that @Gabriel 's answer was proper. And that your answer to that, was quite fuzzy (although true). With no backing-up with suttas’s extracts.

Jhana 3 and the 13th step of anapanasati are not arahantship, anyway.
The path starts indeed here, as stream-entry. So be more precise in your first answer.
And give more details in your second. We might all be better of.

Also, you seem to be coming a long way Mat.
I remember you saying that “this is not mine”, (one of the sotapatti requirement), was not an important Buddhist concept.

You know:
“This is not, yours", because this is impermanent. And self is permanent. So it can’t be self; or even belonging to a (your) self.
Anicca as Impermanence and "Not-one’s-owness”.

“Not prominently”, you say !?!
But this is the basis of the path. The assurance of the right course (AN 10.103 /104). The assurance not to let that in , and appropriate it (viz. “what’s not yours”) .
No “bare attention” - No wrong course applies here.

This is where faith comes into play as stream-entry. Faith in this Dhamma.

59

Hi folks, just to remind, personally directed spikiness goes entirely against the community guidelines. Thanks.

3 Likes
60

To dis-agree is dis-agree-able.

These are not spikes, but mere disagrements.

“Babelling” might be an (insignificant) spike. But certainly not saying to people, that they should avoid “thinking” personally - and instead give more references about texts; with their explanations.
Which is more in accord with the community guidelines.

It would prevent “spikes”; and censorship.