Stillness and liberating insight

In the Susima sutta, Susima the ‘Dhamma thief’ questions an arahanth:

Then knowing and seeing thus, do you venerable ones dwell in those peaceful deliverances that transcend forms, the formless attainments, having touched them with the body?”
“No, friend.” SN12.70

Panna vimutti ‘Release through wisdom’ requires the material jhana, but not the immaterial jhana. Immaterial jhana is a requirement for those ‘released in both ways’.

with metta

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Sure, I am aware of this sutta. But we need to acknowledge that it is the only sutta talking about that possibility and it compares to a handful of other ones which propose a model for the fruition of awakening based on the four material and immaterial absorptions.

The Pali version of the Susima-sutta is quite different from the Sarvastivadian version. Here Susima specifically questions the arahants about achieving the 4th jhana down to the first jhana. Each time the arahants decline these achievements.

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Interesting and also contradicts that sutta which say enlightenment is based on the first jhana etc!

Is there any study on these differences available?

AN4.163 is pretty interesting regarding this question.

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It is partially discussed here:

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I guess, this is where the Theravadin distinction between lokiya and lokuttara jhana comes in handy.

What is declined in the Sarvastivadian version, as well as the Theravadian commentary to the Susima-sutta, is the achievement in training in lokiya jhana. But the axiomatic system of the Theravadins demands a jhana-experience when realizing the fruit and path moments. Of course, those distinctions are never spelled out in the EBTs.

It seems one has to pay to access it. Would you be able to either share it here or present extracts the relevant section? Thanks in advance! :anjal:

147736959-A-Study-of-Sukkihavipassaka-in-Pali-Buddhism-final.pdf (2.1 MB)

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This is a very interesting study, thanks for sharing!
Do you think it is intended to be freely shared? If so, should we have a topic started to discuss it separately?

Yes, I believe it is intended to be freely shared and discussed. I just found that the author also provides a copy of his thesis on his own website:

http://tkwen.sutta.org/A%20Study%20of%20Sukkihavipassaka%20in%20Pali%20Buddhism_final.pdf

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Pariyayi and nipariyayi Nibbana:

http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/50.28-Navaka-Tadanga-Nibbana-S-a9.50-piya.pdf

with metta

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Thanks once again for sharing this interesting study of the sukkhavipassaka doctrine, which in a nutshell makes a possibility the occurrence of awakening without jhanas and is the basis of much of the ‘vipassana movements’ of nowadays.

It was interesting to learn from it that non-Theravada literature leveraged on their equivalents/parallels of the Susima Sutta (SN12.70) to support the idea that awakening can be eventuated through a cultivation of the path based on dry-insight meditative approaches alone.

While a part of me loves the idea that the path can be short-circuited and the serious development of jhana discarded altogether I can’t stop to ask myself how could I have confidence in that approach given that we have only one sutta in the whole of the Canon to support that?

One one side I ask myself wheter it is masochism to insist that there cannot be awakening without jhana , on the other I question whether it is not a risky call to give up totally the aspiration to cultivate the causes of jhana just because of what one single sutta tells me… :confused:

In Susima Sutta, what is the meaning of:

“Here now, Susīma: this answer and the nonattainment of those states, how could this be, Susīma?”

I can’t read Chinese, but according the Vietnamese translation of SA347, the monk only asks if jhanas are equivalent to full liberation. He doesn’t ask specifically if his monastic friends attain those jhanas. Could somebody knowledgeable in Chinese clarify this matter?

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Interesting , can anyone help?
:anjal:

Can’t help with the translation, but if you’re curious about the Susima Sutta, I’d recommend this discussion.

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@Gabriel_L I briefly checked SA 347, and found that Susima asked a perfected one about whether his liberation was that of the freedom of heart (I believe the Pali word for this is Cetovimutti) by describing the freedom of heart from the first absorption up to the formless attainments (SA 347 just refers to realising the formless attainments personally in general without going into details about the four formless attainments). Then, the mentioned perfected one denied that he wasn’t freed of heart; his liberation was that of the freedom by wisdom: “I am freed/liberated by wisdom”(the Pali word for this is Pannavimutti I think).

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Ajahn Brahm recently gave a Sutta Class on the Susima Sutta.

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