Sutta which says the stream winner and before that has the same practise

Q & A
1

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/sujato?lang=en

This is one sutta, I vaguely remember one where Jhānas are mentioned or just the phrase that it is the same practice after stream winning.

Anyone knows?

This is a good use for indication of if someone “attained” to something and says Jhānas are below them already, then it would mean that they are practicing Jhāna lite and not fully appreciating the deep Jhānas. As sutta might indicate. Or that whatever they “attained”, it’s not the Buddha’s stream entry.

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The Sutta isn’t very problematic, more difficult is to understand the nature of your question.:thinking:
So perhaps my remarks are not to the point.

While on verbal level the practice is the same, on existential level there is difference between puthujjana and sotāpanna, namaly virtuous bhkikku does this practice in the presence of sakkayaditthi which creates difficulty in practicing it properly, while sotāpanna has no such problem.

Generally, sutta puts emphasis on disidentification with experience, and for this reason jhanas aren’t mentioned, but from other Suttas we know that in the case of non-returner and arahat jhanas are developed, unlike in the case of sotāpanna who hasn’t gone beyond five hindrances.

In other words jhanas aren’t the subject of the Sutta, or rather they are just only specific, more subtle experience, which also should be seen as: not -self.

3

I have seen some practitioner saying due to non-duality perception, they say going back to Jhāna is a downgrade for them, because there’s self in Jhāna.

Perhaps that is the missing context.

4

Bhante @NgXinZhao,

Your question is not clear to me. By

Sutta which says the stream winner and before that has the same practise

do you mean that you are seeking evidence to refute the view that certain practices are only suitable for stream winners and above? For example, some teachers claim that “it is not possible to practice the 8-fold path before stream entry”. Is that the sort of thing you are referring to?

5

I think it’s more to refute that stream winners have radically different practise compared to worldlings.

Eg. Stream winners don’t need to practise Jhānas anymore. But this is an easy one just using the sutta that says only non returners and above perfected samadhi.

I think it’s a sutta that sort of describe the path, maybe gradual training style, and says after attaining stream winning, it’s the same path to get to arahanthood.

6

Found it. Thanks to @Notez for citing it, although without mentioning which one it is. Google is better than sutta central search for me to just find the sutta from the quote, likely due to different translators using different terminologies.

Awakening to truth: stream winning.

Arrival at truth: arahanthood.

MN95

Scrutinizing them in this way they see that they are purified of qualities that provoke hate. Next, they scrutinize them for qualities that promote delusion. ‘Does this venerable have any qualities that promote delusion? Such qualities that, were their mind to be overwhelmed by them, they might say that they know, even though they don’t know, or that they see, even though they don’t see; or that they might encourage others to do what is for their lasting harm and suffering?’ Scrutinizing them they find: ‘This venerable has no such qualities that promote delusion. Rather, that venerable has bodily and verbal behavior like that of someone without delusion. And the principle that they teach is deep, hard to see, hard to understand, peaceful, sublime, beyond the scope of logic, subtle, comprehensible to the astute. It’s not easy for someone with delusion to teach this.’

Scrutinizing them in this way they see that they are purified of qualities that promote delusion. Next, they place faith in them. When faith has arisen they approach the teacher. They pay homage, actively listen, hear the teachings, remember the teachings, reflect on their meaning, and accept them after consideration. Then enthusiasm springs up; they make an effort, weigh up, and persevere. Persevering, they directly realize the ultimate truth, and see it with penetrating wisdom. That’s how the awakening to truth is defined, Bhāradvāja. I describe the awakening to truth as defined in this way. But this is not yet the arrival at the truth.”

“That’s how the awakening to truth is defined, Master Gotama. I regard the awakening to truth as defined in this way. But Master Gotama, how do you define the arrival at the truth?”

“By the cultivation, development, and making much of these very same things there is the arrival at the truth. That’s how the arrival at the truth is defined, Bhāradvāja. I describe the arrival at the truth as defined in this way.”

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Namo Buddhaya!

This is also to be drawn out from silavant sutta and mn64

“A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry.”

“Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?”

“A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning.”

“Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?”

“A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning.”

“Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?”

“A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship.”

“Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?”

“An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness.” Silavant Sutta: Virtuous

And the mn64

“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. SuttaCentral

There are more texts that make a point of doing more of the same but it is generally about establishing the perception of unattractiveness in regards to the aggregates for a turning away to the immediacy apprehended as the stilling of all sankhara, nirodha.

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