Talking to each other in times of divisiveness

Here is the point I would like to foster discussion of:

This is from a recent post (with a few corrections):

I have noticed that the climate of divisiveness that currently predominates in western societies and on other parts of the internet sometimes creeps into our discussion board, together with the issues used to foster it, which seems to sometimes bring frustration to some users.

I think we need to remain mindful, patient and to avoid judging each other, seeing the bigger picture without getting immersed in pre-programmed controversies and understanding that harmony among us should remain more important than whatever point we wish to make.

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Kosambī at Ghosita’s monastery. And on that occasion the monks in Kosambī were given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing one another with weapons of the mouth. They did not persuade one another, and did not agree to be persuaded by one another. They did not convince one another, and did not agree to be convinced by one another.

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One: “Lord, the monks in Kosambī are now given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing one another with weapons of the mouth. They don’t persuade one another, and don’t agree to be persuaded by one another. They don’t convince one another, and don’t agree to be convinced by one another.

Then the Blessed One told a certain monk, “Come, monk. In my name, call those monks, saying, ‘The Teacher calls you, venerable ones.’”

Responding, “As you say, lord,” to the Blessed One, the monk went to those monks, and on arrival he said to them, “The Teacher calls you, venerable ones.”

Responding, “As you say, my friend,” to the monk, those monks went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side .

As they were sitting there, the Blessed One said to them, “Is it true, monks, that you are given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing one another with weapons of the mouth? That you don’t persuade one another, and don’t agree to be persuaded by one another? That you don’t convince one another, and don’t agree to be convinced by one another?”

“Yes, lord.”

“And while you are given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing one another with weapons of the mouth, are you set on bodily acts of good will with regard to your companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs? Are you set on verbal acts of good will with regard to your companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs? Are you set on mental acts of good will with regard to your companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs?”

“No, lord.”

“So then, while you are given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing one another with weapons of the mouth, you are not set on bodily acts of good will with regard to your companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs; you are not set on verbal acts of good will with regard to your companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs; you are not set on mental acts of good will with regard to your companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs. Then what could you worthless men possibly know or see that you are given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing one another with weapons of the mouth? That will be to your long-term harm and suffering.”

Then the Blessed One addressed the monks: “Monks, these six are conditions that are conducive to amiability, that engender feelings of endearment, engender feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity. Which six?

“There is the case where a monk is set on bodily acts of good will with regard to his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs. This is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“And further, the monk is set on verbal acts of good will with regard to his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs. This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“And further, the monk is set on mental acts of good will with regard to his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs. This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“And further, whatever righteous gains the monk may obtain in a righteous way—even if only the alms in his bowl—he does not consume them alone. He consumes them after sharing them in common with his virtuous companions in the holy life. This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“And further—with reference to the virtues that are untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the observant, ungrasped at, leading to concentration—the monk dwells with his virtue in tune with that of his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs. This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“And further—with reference to the view that is noble, leading outward, that leads those who act in accordance with it to the right ending of suffering & stress—the monk dwells with a view in tune with those of his companions in the holy life, to their faces & behind their backs. This, too, is a condition that is conducive to amiability, that engenders feelings of endearment, engenders feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“These are the six conditions that are conducive to amiability, that engender feelings of endearment, engender feelings of respect, leading to a sense of fellowship, a lack of disputes, harmony, & a state of unity.

“Of these six conditions conducive to amiability, this is the summit, this the girding, this the kingpin: the view that is noble, leading outward, that leads those who act in accordance with it to the right ending of suffering & stress. Just as in a building with a ridged roof, this is the summit, this the girding, this the kingpin: the ridge beam; in the same way, of these six conditions conducive to amiability, this is the summit, this the girding, this the kingpin: the view that is noble, leading outward, that leads those who act in accordance with it to the right ending of suffering & stress.

“And how is there the view that is noble, leading outward, that leads those who act in accordance with it to the right ending of suffering & stress?

If a monk is absorbed in speculation about this world, then his mind is enthralled. If a monk is absorbed in speculation about the other world, then his mind is subjugated. If a monk is given to arguing and quarreling and disputing, stabbing others with weapons of the mouth, then his mind is subjugated.

“And further, the disciple of the noble ones considers thus: ‘When I cultivate, develop, and pursue this view, do I personally obtain tranquility, do I personally obtain unbinding?’

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Thank you.
In case anyone is interested, the sutta cited above is MN 48.

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Although I agree with the sentiment I really don’t think the notion of equivalence is correct.

Things change and things are changing. What was once okay and accepted is no longer going to be okay and accepted. There really is no going back or standing still.

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We know that human birth involves pain. Samsara includes birth as well as death and it should be recognized a new millennium involves the inevitable suffering of countries like Ukraine, Sri Lanka, and Myanmar, as well as social changes in the West. Old values are dying and new ones emerging, and in some countries this involves physical conflict as some cannot let go of the past and will die with it. This cycle is over a time scale of centuries, so nothing will be resolved quickly, although change is occurring at a rapid rate.

Impermanence:

“There is the case where a monk [discerns]: ‘Such is form, such its origination”—Majhima Nikaya 10

Christians don’t realize samsara will continue in the new age:

I need to consider this further. Thank you Bhante for bringing the sutta and its teaching to attention. While I was writing I felt as though I was expressing deeply and from the heart …. well I was, but I was feeling far from tranquil. It would have been more skilful to have waited twelve hours and tried to speak from a place of calm.

:pray:

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Hi Peter, it is not very clear to me what you intend to say by this. Are you talking about the equivalence between team blue and team red? Or are you referencing something else?

Yes I am talking about the equivalence between team blue and team red.

The sowers of discord’s trick is to constantly direct people’s attention on points of divergence and contention with the other team until people become unable to understand that there are actually many more points of convergence and agreement between them.

Meanwhile, some of the foremost sowers of discord in the blue and red teams are actually buddy-buddies:

“I mean that was the basis of my professional friendship with Roger Ailes. I wanted tips from him about how to be better on TV. And he was willing to talk to me about what I was doing well, and doing poorly, to help me get better,” Maddow said.

In a 2013 Salon story, Maddow said, “Tucker and I agree on just about nothing, but he has always been kind to me, and a fun person to fight with. I wish him all the best.”

Maddow has always credited Carlson for being part of her career success and has, in turn, supported his work, despite their differing political beliefs.

During the interview, Maddow remembered bumping into the Fox News host recently and said, “It was really nice to see him.”

If they have solidarity among them, why couldn’t we also have solidarity among us?

Why focus on disagreements when we can instead focus on agreements? There’s no reason not to, and that’s what we naturally do in everyday life. But that’s not what sowers of discord want, and that’s not what they condition us to do.

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I just read that Russell Brand would have recently declared, in connection with the queen’s passing and the king’s ascent to the throne in uk:

the culture wars demand you make a choice between two things that can both be true

So apparently I have not been the only one to notice this tactic of divisiveness

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Yeh. I was just reading something called The Philosophy of the Aṭṭhakavagga by P. D. Premasiri, The Wheel Publication #182, as a bit of prep before I go digging around in that. It was very interesting and talked a lot about what you have been mentioning here. Thank you :slight_smile:

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