thank you @prabhath , I also apologize, I think I lost my temper and was less than charitable with your responses, I feel a bit of a fool, as it is precisely to provoke debate and conversation that I posted in the first place!
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That’s incorrect, those statements are not related to other sects but to the Buddha’s teaching. Probably “by one who has penetrated to no higher release,” has been misunderstood. What it means is the brahma viharas according with the name, are limited to within the conditioned realms.
My gloss was simply indicating the context of the sutta being one where the monks are talking to the wanderers of other sects about the viharas and that the Buddha is explaining thier apex for anyone who is not pursuing them with the correct understanding that they are not to be clung to.
That view is a dangerous and escapist over-simplification as it skips to the arahant’s position without taking account of the body of the path, which consists of the development of skillful use of conditioned phenomena. In the sutta the Buddha puts the brahma viharas into the larger context of the seven factors of awakening, which includes investigation. Investigation regarding metta for example would be the recognition of what is ill will and not ill will, and how the development of the latter proceeds.
I suspect we just have different understandings of Buddhism paul1. As for danger and escape, we’ll there are phenomena, there is the pleasure of phenomena, there is the danger in phenomena and there is the escape from phenomena.
As for the awakening factors being a larger context than the viharas, as I have said earlier in the thread I think it is clear to see for those with little dust in their eyes that these are all formulas for the same process, the graduated freeing the mind from clinging.
Love.
By ‘dangerous’ is meant:
" This is the sense in which even the path of right practice must eventually be abandoned, but only after it has been brought to the culmination of its development.
Many people have misunderstood this point, believing that the Buddha’s teachings on non-attachment require that one relinquish one’s attachment to the path of practice as quickly as possible. Actually, to make a show of abandoning the path before it is fully developed is to abort the entire practice. As one teacher has put it, a person climbing up to a roof by means of a ladder can let go of the ladder only when safely on the roof. In terms of the famous raft simile [§§113-114], one abandons the raft only after crossing the flood. If one were to abandon it in mid-flood, to make a show of going spontaneously with the flow of the flood’s many currents, one could drown."—Thanissaro
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I certainly agree that one should not abandon the raft while still in the flood.
However I think that many followers of the Pali tradition, both within Theravada and outside it, have, as someone on here suggested, built something more like a large yacht than a raft, meticulously positing subtle differences between every occurance of every word in every formula to make an elaborate superstructure that in my opinion loses sight of the forest for the trees.
The basic idea of the awakening factors is the same as the basic idea of the eightfold path which is the same as the basic idea of basically every formula in the canon, a progressive refinement, based on conditionality, of the mind and its understanding, leading from attachment, clinging and suffering towards non-attachment, non-clinging, and non-suffering.
Whichever particular teaching or combination of teachings one takes as their guide is fine by me, but the idea that there is some way that the upekkha in the jhana is a different upekkha in the vihara is a different upekkha in the factors of awakening, with the underlying assumption being that all these different formulas are somehow distinct parts of some complex mega structure is just utterly unconvincing to me, and it is especially noticeable to me that the people who keep telling me these things don’t actually give any arguments for their position, they merely declaim them as fact and declaim that my ideas are wrong and dangerous, which makes them, i must say, even less convincing than utterly unconvincing, if that is even possible.
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What do you think about this: when one has noble right view one sees and knows also the limits of effort and development, while not abandoning it. Don’t you think one has to see the limits of effort and development?
Thank you for the question. Which sutta is this from?
Lay practitioners need to know their position with regard to the path as it is usually overestimated. AN 11.13 outlines the realistic practice for one involved in family life. On the other hand in MN 62 the Buddha advising his son describes the practice appropriate for a monastic, which advises meditation subjects for renunciation.
For a layperson the levels of discernment and concentration are set out:
[6] “Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: ‘There are the Devas of the Four Great Kings, the Devas of the Thirty-three, the Devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma’s retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.’ At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.”—AN 11.13
In contrast, the subjects recommended for a monastic are the elements, brahma viharas, body contemplations, impermanence, the breath. The Anapanasati sutta MN 118 prescribes a similar list for beginner monks.
So the practitioner should have a realistic idea of what they are capable of according with lifestyle. Those lay people who are not involved with family and living in seclusion, would be capable of more of the subjects recommended for monastics. The factor that motivates practitioners to seek a secluded lifestyle is awareness of the defilements to which they are subject, and prioritizing the desire to overcome those in this lifetime. While not the monastic course, it is a commitment.
“Before we turn to the development of wisdom, it will be helpful to inquire why concentration is not adequate to the attainment of liberation. Concentration does not suffice to bring liberation because it fails to touch the defilements at their fundamental level. The Buddha teaches that the defilements are stratified into three layers: the stage of latent tendency, the stage of manifestation, and the stage of transgression. The most deeply grounded is the level of latent tendency (anusaya), where a defilement merely lies dormant without displaying any activity. The second level is the stage of manifestation (pariyutthana), where a defilement, through the impact of some stimulus, surges up in the form of unwholesome thoughts, emotions, and volitions. Then, at the third level, the defilement passes beyond a purely mental manifestation to motivate some unwholesome action of body or speech. Hence this level is called the stage of transgression (vitikkama).”—Bikkhu Bodhi
This is from SN57. Dark Green-Samyuatta 
It is not in the Sutta-Pitaka Paul.
I think our, and surely mine, western mind is always occupied with striving, effort, becoming, goals in the future. If Dhamma practice on top of that also is all about striving, effort, becoming, future orientated, than…i predict… we come at a point we cannot even be anymore without striving, goals, an orientation on becoming. Without it we will feel completely lost, disoriented and that’s why we take grip again and are chasing some goal in the future again.
I think all that grapsing in our minds, that seeking grip, is rooted in our inability to be at ease in the mind without goal, striving, future perspectives, carrots for the nose. Always seeking grip.
I feel, we live in a time, a very restless time, a time only focussed on becoming, reaching this and that. I feel this time needs teachers and Dhamma who create an atmosphere of non-striving, no goals, letting go, relax. It is oke.
I have seen that underlying all that seeking grip there is fear. A feeling of being lost. There is also the inner judgement that it is very wrong to be without goal, striving and effort. That one is a bad person that way. This judgement always above ones head. And while one compensating this , tries to be a good person, a good buddhist, delusion only grows. For me this is Mara. Mara is that force in us which always stirres up the fire to be active, to act, to strive, to fabricate, to make a better person of oneself etc. It is the voice that one lacks all kinds of thinks.
That what makes that we are not at ease with ourselves.
Thank you for your views which are accurate but confined to becoming. The pursuit of tranquillity alone results in the suppression of the hindrances. Eradication of them is achieved through insight, as Bikkhu Bodhi said. Tranquillity opposes restlessness which is the second last fetter, therefore it is a necessary attainment but will not overcome ignorance. Those remain bewildered. To overcome ‘search’ is necessary, that is the awakening factor of investigation.
"“And what is the result of stress? There are some cases in which a person overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, & becomes bewildered. Or one overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, comes to search outside, ‘Who knows a way or two to stop this pain?’ I tell you, monks, that stress results either in bewilderment or in search. This is called the result of stress.”
Investigation:
" [4] "‘Fermentations (asava) should be known. The cause by which fermentations come into play… The diversity in fermentations… The result of fermentations… The cessation of fermentations… The path of practice for the cessation of fermentations should be known.’ Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?
“There are these three kinds of fermentations: the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance.”------AN 6.63
‘Becoming’ includes the pursuit of tranquillity which is limited to the conditioned realms. It is a higher fetter so may become a consideration later in the practice. The path may be begun either through tranquillity or insight.
Thanks Paul. You interpret my words in this way that it describes only a pursuit of tranquility. But for me overcoming ignorance also means overcoming the idea that one has to become wise and does not see ones own wisdom potential.
Buddha refers to this in MN117 when he talks about the Noble Path and mundane Path.
For example, If you give something to a monk, thinking; ‘now i accumulate merit, now i can be reborn as deva’ one can immediately understand, i find, this will never ever be a noble kind of giving. This is business. This is not purified morality. I do not say it is wrong but it is easy to understand it is not noble.
One does not have to learn this, i feel, because one knows. We have this wisdom potential to know what is noble or just business and mundane.
The heart knows these kind of things. That’s why i do not belief we are really ignorant. There is wisdom in us allready. We know the Noble Path already. In some way we understand that living like a businessman is not pure, noble, noble right view, noble right intention. noble speech, noble acting etc. We feel the dukkha of living like a businessman because a businessman always accumulates, becomes burdened. It is connected with kamma, but when something comes straight from the heart it is not connected with kamma .
A pure or noble deed of giving is giving without expactation for something in return. One just shares. (giving is just a example). That is very easy to see, right? The heart knows what is pure and noble already. We have this wisdom potential.
What i am trying to say is that all that effort, all that striving, is mostly based on the assumption that we lack all kind of things, while i belief, we very much need to see our richness. We are much richer than we belief.
Yes, i know the sutta’s teach that defilements can be eradicated. I wonder if this must be taken literally. If samsara is without discovering beginning, and if we mostly abide in the lower realms, it is to be expacted that during all this time defilements have built up. How can that totally disappear?
I question if it really disappears. Or does one be cut of from this defiled potential when one progresses on the Path?
In Patisambhidamagga, treatise on knowledge, §355-358, this step by step purification of the mind is described, as in many sutta’s. Nanamoli translates: …‘these imperfections are completely cut off in his own cognizance’. (I do not know what is the Pali).
I have the idea that it is not like an arahant has no defiled potential anymore, no unwholesome kamma seeds, but it just becomes not active anymore. It is as it were shut down. I do not really belief that, for example, the potential of greed which has been accumulated over endless lives, can in one life be uprooted. 'Eradicated seems to imply …gone…but i think something else is going on, more like paralysed, shut down, stunned.
@Green, i don’t think this is necessarily the case. in fact, if you follow the 5 precepts, and make an effort of developing your mind in this life, likelihood is that on death, your mind will not be overcome with greed, aversion or delusion. as a result of this kind of mind, on death that mind will condition a rebirth in a fortunate place.
if a person manages to develop loving kindness, even for an instant, the buddha said such a person isn’t without jhana, and the merit of loving kindness exceeds that of dana, giving.
the defilements do disappear. yes, the seeds may or may not be there, but if the nutriment or fuel is no longer there, the seeds can no longer come to fruition. the effective result is the same - an absence of defilement.
Nice @IndyJ , thanks.
Bodhi says some interesting things about the kamma of metta. In MN note 915 … “the kamma pertaining to the fine-material sphere (rupa-loka) or the immaterial sphere (arupa loka) overpowers the sense-sphere kammas (kama-loka) and produces its results. Obstructing the result of the sense-sphere kammas, the brahmavihara that has been mastered leads to rebirth in the company of Brahma".
What also is written (i thin you know) is that when the mind is not really purified and developed yet, and is still of the level of a worldling, there will be rebirth in a lower realm, for example as animal. And once born there, it is very very difficult to find rebirth as a human again (MN129, the simile of the blind turtle).
There is also a lot of rebirth-info in SN56.111-131. That is all about how seldom it is,for example, for a deva to be born human again etc etc).
After reading SN 46.54 this morning, I needed some unpacking and your explanation really helped.
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