And this is where I potentially depart from you as this to me sounds like you have found a core or essence of impurity to all existence where I do not think a core or essence can be found to any existence. It is precisely because they lack essence that they can be purified to my understanding.
Incidentally, in water the atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen can also be broken down into parts and those parts broken down into parts and in terms of some scientific theories those parts exist dependent upon an observer and a reference frame and all the counterfactuals that are possible and an instrument to measure them. No independent, partless, core or essence has yet been found, but scientists keep looking
They understand: âHere there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.â They understand: âThis field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.â And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. Thatâs how emptiness manifests in themâgenuine, undistorted, pure, and supreme. MN121
No ignorance, this is referring to the arahants already. Yet still the 6 sense fields are deemed as dukkha and that dukkha only ceases at parinibbÄna completely, without remainder.
For me the concept of existence and non-existence gets undermined. The ideas of âsomethingâ and ânothingâ no longer apply. But weâre in the same ball park I think.
Hydrogen and Oxygen are not impurities of water, ofcourse, but together they more or less define water in a chemical way. Like gold is chemically made up of atoms of Au.
You know i am not a diplomate. I believe it is not correct to think about this as impurities because these atoms and molecules form the substance or base of what we can call water and gold. Without this molecular base we would not even talk about water and gold. It would be non-existent.
Likewise, without the stilled empty peaceful essence of mind there is no mind at all to speak of. H2O molecules, Au atoms in a molecular structure, minds empty stilled essence are not concepts. They are part of nature.
Ofcourse molecules and atoms they can be reduced to smaller parts but that does not mean they do not exist, right @yeshe.tenley ? If one in deeper analyses finds no substance that does not mean that there does not exist a real molecular/atomic base for water and gold to exist. Likewise the mind.
The suttaâs never speak about impurities, like you do stu. The most subtle impurites of the mind as describes in the suttaâs, are things that relates to ego, for example our wishes to be respected.
This is describes in AN3.101
Minds essential empty, uninclined, peaceful, signless nature is never spoken of as an impurity but as the refuge, the island, dispassion, peace, Nibbana.
Love that sutta. Itâs about samma samadhi, right?
But there comes a time when that mind is stilled internally; it settles, unifies, and becomes immersed in samÄdhi. That immersion is peaceful and sublime and tranquil and unified, not held in place by forceful suppression. They extend the mind to realize by insight each and every thing that can be realized by insight; and they are capable of realizing those things, since each and every one is within range.
When the mind is stilled, thatâs where we have the necessary tools for the work to start
If they wish: âMay I realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life, and live having realized it with my own insight due to the ending of defilements.â They are capable of realizing these things, since each and every one is within range.â
I also love that sutta. I also like the part that a purified mind is easy to apply, pliant, and defilements make mind rigid, not easy to use. This describes the true characteristics of mind. It is free.
In an sense a defiled mind uses us. And when mind is purified we can use mind. This is not meant as a statement about atta.
But what is essence? If there is something that makes water water? Does that meet the idea of an essence of water? Then it is H20, i believe. If one breaks up H20 in H2 and O2 then water stops to be water. So that more are less says that H20 is the essence of what water is, independ of how this water is experienced by a being. Or must we say substance? What is exactly essence?
@yeshe.tenley I was using water like the chariot in sn5.10. When Hydrogen and Oxygen come together we call it water and the âessenceâ of âwaterâ is probably something like wetness. When the aggregates come together we say itâs âmeâ and itâs âessenceâ of âmeâ is dukkha.
@stu and @Green there is no essence of water. Although there appears to be and we have a deeply ingrained feeling there is, in actuality when we go searching for it we come up empty.
I was using essence in the common definition rather than any esoteric philosophical definition, so Essence: âthe intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, which determines its character.â
When I go searching for wetness in water I always find it. When I go searching for dukkha in me I always find that. These essences are immediately apparent and thatâs what I always find
What you seen to be saying is that âessenceâ is a redundant word for you. Thatâs OK, but Iâm not sure why you would attempt to have a conversation about it?
The wetness in H20 is dependent upon temperature. If you go searching for wetness in H20 below a certain degree you will not find it Also, you can find âwetnessâ in liquid mercury too.
It isnât just about the inability to find an irreducible substance of matter. Far from it. Immaterial things also lack essence. Are you familiar with the story I have related about the God, human and hungry ghost?
i have heard of the story/simile that human perceive water in a certain way, God as nectar, pretaâs as pus, hell being as acid or some burning liqued, and Green is to foolish to perceive anything.
I feel this story shows howl beings have a different perception of something that exist in a realistic wayâŚwater, molecules of H20. Without this, these beings would not have a different perception of water.
There are insects that walk on water. If we would ask them what is water like, they would describe something like concrete. But these different perceptions of water are merely due to their different dispositions, i believe. But water remains water. H20. It remains a perception of something that exist independ of the observer. I have no doubts about this.
Perceiving something is not the same as creating something. It is not that chicken arise from my eye, mind, brain but they are really born from an egg. The simile only shows how subjective and intersubjective perception is.
I agree with the general message of this simile of different percetions of different beings of the same thing, that it makes no sense to discuss which perception is correct, or who knows truly water.
But still you do not answer what is the reason, what is the cause that you think there is no irreducable substance? Why are you so sure about this? Have you never heard of God, Brahman, the One
Physics hold that the quarks are the final, smallest component of matter. They have however said this about every other smallest particle before. And it seems that there are some problems with proving quarks empirically.
The question of whether there is a smallest component of matter at all is held by Kant (the philosopher) as one of four questions that mankind will never be able to solve.
I didnât talk about the wetness of H2O, I talked about the wetness of water. You know, like when you have a shower.
My definition of essence doesnât preclude this.
But Hurrah! Well done! You thought that you would search and come up empty, and you said this
but yay! You managed to find wetness in water and liquid mercury too. I was beginning to think that maybe you might be one of those people who canât perceive wetness and also maybe one of those people who canât perceive suffering in people
@stu@green I leave you both to your views about essence whatever they may be. Feel free to ignore when I speak about it. Just because it seems helpful for me to think this way doesnât mean it will be for you
Also, you can find âwetnessâ in liquid mercury too.
