Is that which ‘sees or discovers’ conditioned or unconditioned?
I do not have all the answers . I also do not want to feed my own delusion that i am a dhamma -expert. That i am certainly not. But, still, Buddhism, for me, is not like transforming from a wordling into a Buddha, gradually shaping oneself to become a Budddha. Like transforming from a mouse into an elephant.
For me, buddhism is about seeing or feeling one is allready a Buddha, but all kinds of adventitous stuff, bagage, is collected in this and other lifes that hinders that one aldready thinks, speeks and acts like a Buddha. But i belief it is no phantasy that everybodies nature is already Buddha, a pure heart, even of the greatest criminals.
It is my understanding that with the experience of nibbana the mind has a final notion before it turns “silent”. Then, within that state, it might after a while [hard to determine how long that is without any reference] the mind might move a slight bit. Not sufficient to be traced as this or that, but sufficient to know there is movement. Right when this happens it becomes silent again.
This - as I understand - is what Sariputta called the experience of the end of becoming [the movement is not sufficient to be classified as anything besides “not without movement”] followed by nibbana [the mind resting once more].
Correct, yet how could Sariputta be percipient of there is no vinnana?
Let’s start out with the observation that the experience is experienced as signless, emptiness or undirected.
This indicates that whatever is experienced cannot be “reached” by mind as some point of contact (which was present in the previous state). Due to lack of contact consciousness cannot rise.
Yet after emerging from such a state there is recollection of it, and in recollection it becomes clear that there was perception, being the experience of what was not present (the mind resting, not moving to or from any perception).
What’s important to realise however is that in this recollection the mind does make contact with something entirely different, being the already past experience. There being the recollection + mind + contact there is consciousness as well.
Correct, because all of these have stopped, however briefly. The realisation however comes later, in reflection.
Beyond doubt: nibbana is experienced. And it’s experienced by mind, also beyond doubt. It’s not experienced as body, feeling, perception or “sankhara”. As for Viññāna, I’d like to rephrase what you said.
You said: nibbana cannot be an object for Viññāna to know.
I consider this correct, but with a twist. Since Viññāna is subject to change it “cannot directly know” nibbana, only by recollection. Yet due to it’s beliefs it might take the past experience as (direct) knowledge. I’ll leave it with this, since the discussion went on since I started typing.
I think that last part is in line with Ven. Boowa.
In other words, avijja colours the knowing nature of the mind
I’m not too sure he would agree on this statement, although I understand it and where it comes from.
The way phrased the knowing nature is property of mind/citta (the mind knows, which is bordering I know). Had you stated " avijja colours knowing" I consider it more appropriate.
Thanks for your time and effort, I’m learning as well. @Green
By … right view, right thought … right mindfulness, right immersion.
You make what needs to be made, develop what needs to be developed, condition what needs to be conditioned.
Ending “greed” by immersion based on “giving up” (jhana), ending “hatred” by replacing it by longing [sadness] (for liberation), ending ignorance by (meditative) equanimity.
And right at that point, done everything which needs to be done, liberation is present.
But does this Path not only lead to supression of defilements?
in fact Maha Boowa teaches that citta is seperate from the five khandha’s. Al least it seems tha way.
So, Maha Boowa seems to teach that vinnana can end and there is still a knowing essence.
He said: “I realized this truth with absolute clarity the moment when the citta’s knowing essence stood alone on its own, completely uninvolved with anything whatsoever. There was only that knowing presence standing out prominently, awesome in its splendor. The citta lets go of the body, feeling, memory, thought and consciousness and enters a pure stillness of its very own, with absolutely no connection to the khandhas. In that moment, the five khandhas do not function in any way at all in relation to the citta. In other words, the citta and the khandhas exist independently because they have been completely cut off from one another due to the persistent efforts of meditation”.
(arahattamagga/phala, page 31)
Right immersion (samadhi) results in right (direct) knowledge (sn12.23, sn45.159, mn117), right knowledge in liberation.
I think I agree on this, based on what I wrote:
I do however still wonder how Ven. Boowa applies … Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā … Sabbe dhammā anattā to his experience (of citta).
He tells about the changing citta (saṅkhārā), and how investigation of that lead him to liberation.
It was realisation of anatta leading to this [as I recall].
His writings on it are however a bit confusing, but that might be due to translation as well.
Hi @Jos,
I do not think this right immersion always refers to jhana. Right immersion is the condition for seeing things as they really are, meaning, seeing conditioned phenomena as anicca, dukkha and anatta. I belief that this does not mean one has to be in a jhana to see this. I belief…surely not. It is a commen daily state of mind this right immersion. Otherwise you could not practise and apply wisdom in daily life. That makes no sense.
When one sees and understands phenomena as they really are (not only in jhana but in normal states too): as anicca, dukkha and anatta (or sometimes also contemplated as impermanent, unreliable and unstable) that leads to a disinterest gradually (Nibbida). It is not that fascinating anymore. The usual passion for it weakens when one sees things with more wisdom. One becomes gradually dispassionate towards it. In a dispassionate heart the knowledge of liberation arises.
Abiding in jhana an-sich does not lead to this. It is does not uproot passion. This is the function of wisdom, seeing things as they really are. One can even start to crave for the pleasure of jhana. So that does not lead to dispassion.
Some info which might be helpful.
It says in the same book, page 96: “Still, the essential knowing of the average person’s mind is very different from the essential knowing (Citta, Green) of an Arahant. The average person’s knowing nature is contaminated from within. Arahants, being khynãsava, are free of all contamination. Their knowing is a pure and simple awareness without any adulteration. Pure awareness, devoid of all contaminants, is supreme awareness: a truly amazing quality of knowing that bestows perfect happiness, as befits the Arahant’s state of absolute purity. This Supreme Happiness always remains constant. It never changes or varies like conditioned phenomena of the world, which are always burdened with anicca, dukkha, and anattã. Such mundane characteristics cannot possibly enter into the citta of someone who has cleansed it until it is absolutely pure”.
In our citta there enter defilements and they mix up (seemingly). For example, our knowing is mixed-up with asmi mana, a conceit “I am” and that together makes the impression there is not just knowing but also one-who-knows, an ego or self-conceit. So the knowing essence becomes impure. It changes from just knowing into a knower who knows. In other tradition they refer to this as the phase in which non-dual wisdom becomes dual consciousnesss.
This citta of the arahant is beyond conventional reality. it is beyond rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. Beyond, in this sense that it does not mix up anymore with the knowing of the arahant.
On the same page it says: “Since he has also transcended all conventional connections, not a single aspect of relative, conventional reality can possibly become involved with the Arahant’s citta. At the level of Arahant, the citta has absolutely no involvement with anything”.
Here is the citta not only seperated from the body but also from the mental aspect of vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. One sees that all those and citta are seperate realities (page 98).
For example, body (rupa), bodily pain (dukkha vedana) and citta are all seperate realities and the citta can therefor be totally detached from the most intense pain and you can be happy amids the most intense pains (it seems). Another way to speak of detachment is to be beyond it.
Page 99 : “Although all conditioned phenomena without exception are governed by the three universal laws of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, the citta’s true nature is not subject to these laws. The citta is conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã only because things that are subject to these laws come spinning in to become involved with the citta and so cause it to spin along with them. However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature. But we remain unaware of this truth because the conventional realities that involve themselves with the citta have completely surrounded it, making the citta’s nature thoroughly conform to theirs”.
So, this school seems to teach that there is something in us which is not anicca, dukkha and anatta. A true escape, a true refuge, even deathless.
The role of avijja is this:
“The avijjã-citta seems to have every virtue: it is bright, it is bold, it is supremely contented and its quality of knowing seems limitless. But, despite knowing every conceivable sort of thing, this knowing nature does not know itself. This is the fundamental ignorance of genuine avijjã. As soon as this knowing nature turns back and looks into itself, avijjã disintegrates. This disintegration, in turn, reveals the truth about the citta, the truth about Dhamma. Only avijjã keeps this truth hidden from view” .
(page66).
The clue seems to be…this knowing nature does not know itself…meaning it thinks it is an ego, a person, a subject. Maha Boowa illustrates in his book there can come a moment, arhattamagga, when one really sees the knowing nature as it is.
Hi @stu ,
What do you think?
Can you also tell me why you insist there is no aspect of no-change?
Do you think it is an illusion to advance a kind of knowing seperate of vinnana?
How do you understand ‘the unconditioned?’
You said:
I simply asked if that ‘we’ was conditioned or not? If that ‘we’ is subject to arising and falling? If the ‘discoverer’ is stable or not. That’s all. I just wanted your view on this.
You replied with:
Which is fine. And I am happy with your answer and I’m not saying that it is not a legitimate Buddhist view. But I do not believe that it is in line with what is said in the EBT’s, where we have similes such crossing a body of water from one shore to the other, or as the ancient path to an ancient city as in SN12.65
Then it occurred to me: I have discovered the path to awakening. That is: When name and form cease, consciousness ceases. When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease. When the six sense fields cease, contact ceases. … That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases. ‘Cessation, cessation.’ Such was the vision, knowledge, wisdom, realization, and light that arose in me regarding teachings not learned before from another.
Suppose a person was walking through a forest. They’d see an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by humans in the past. Following it along, they’d see an ancient city, an ancient capital, inhabited by humans in the past. It was lovely, complete with parks, groves, lotus ponds, and embankments. Then that person would inform a king or their minister: ‘Please sir, you should know this. While walking through a forest I saw an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by humans in the past. Following it along I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital, inhabited by humans in the past. It was lovely, complete with parks, groves, lotus ponds, and embankments. Sir, you should rebuild that city!’ Then that king or their minister would have that city rebuilt. And after some time that city was successful and prosperous and full of people, attained to growth and expansion. In the same way, I saw an ancient path, an ancient route traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past.
And what is that ancient path, the ancient road traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past? It is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion. This is that ancient path, the ancient road traveled by fully awakened Buddhas in the past.
Following it along, I directly knew old age and death, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation. Following it along, I directly knew rebirth … continued existence … grasping … craving … feeling … contact … the six sense fields … name and form … consciousness … Following it along, I directly knew choices, their origin, their cessation, and the practice that leads to their cessation.
I don’t think I have said that have I? I’ve asked some questions about what you mean, but I hope that haven’t denied the ending of all suffering (pari-nibbana)?Tell me what I have said that you are having difficulty with and I’ll try my hardest to explain what I meant. Sometimes things don’t come across so well on forums.
I am yet to be convinced that it is a position that is supported by the EBTs. But as always, I’m open to persuasion.
Hi @stu , thanks.
I am still more in a investigating phase, i think. I am looking for a ground for the inner observation i do not change. The stillness, the silence, the emptiness seems to be more me then any conditioned phenomena. It is not like i view this stilness as me. It is more that i can sense that anything can cease while awake but this stillness cannot. Even if there is a lot of noise of thoughts and emotiones it is not really gone.
Ofcourse the body changes, feelings change during a day, plans, emotions, thoughts, views, perceptions etc. but does this stillness change? I do not feel i change a bit. I am very sure some people say i have changed, and i can understand why they say that, because they observe different behaviour of me, but from within i am still exactly the same.
It seems like what is really Me is not changing and what changes is not really me. Is there a reasonble ground for no-change or is it all a delusion?
Do you really feel like you change? Honestly. Do not jump to any kind of theory for an answer or knowledge that is not yours yet. See from within, from your own experience, your own knowledge. Do you change and in what way? Is all changing about you?
Path
What i said about being Buddha’s is, i belief, in line with the Sutta Pitaka. If you purify your heart from adventitious defilements, and anusaya, asava and tanha are uprooted, you have become yourself. It is like ceasing of formations. You do not become a different person but yourself. You do not alienate anymore. Delusion is a kind of self-alienation.
I also belief we need a Path to become ourselves again. Because during many lives we have lost ourselves in a wrong view of self, and have begon to see things as Me which are not Me. We need a path back again, to become ourselves again, Buddha’s. We must see this Path is our own heart. Our birthright. The Noble Path is our own heart. It is not in books. The ancient Path is nothing then pure heartedness. We all have this pure heart, it is only overgrown with defilements, but those can be removed.
I think it is certainly not given much attention but i think in cessation of perception of feeling there must be a kind of knowing independend of the khandha’s. It knows: this is peaceful, the stilling of all formations, the relinquising of all attachment etc. I do not think there is vinnana in sannavedayita-niroha.
I don’t see anything that has not changed (is not changing). But that’s just my experience, so it doesn’t mean much in this context.
I don’t read it like that at all. But I can see how you can.
For sure. When one comes out of any state where x has disappeared, it can be known that x had disappeared whilst in that state. And if x = 'time, consciousness, and all that is perceived and felt’, then I guess one can then certainly suggest that: saññāvedayitanirodha is peaceful , etc…
Strange. I do not really understand this. I cannot relate to this. Are you sure you do not give an answer you have learned? Is it really your own direct non theoretical experience or knowledge that you change all the time? Sorry, for my pushing, but i cannot see and understand your answer, really.
I think maha boowa also says that the citta can absorb in stillness. He says: “I saw with unequivocal clarity that the essential knowing nature of the citta could never possibly be annihilated. Even if everything else were completely destroyed, the citta would remain wholly unaffected. I realized this truth with absolute clarity the moment when the citta’s knowing essence stood alone on its own, completely uninvolved with anything whatsoever (I belief that’s the moment avijja disappears from the mind, Green). There was only that knowing presence standing out prominently, awesome in its splendor. The citta lets go of the body, feeling, memory, thought and consciousness and enters a pure stillness of its very own, with absolutely no connection to the khandhas” (arahattamagga/phala, page 31)
I think this stillness or peace is still known while there is no vinnana, because there is still a kind of knowing. But this is not a knowing of a-knower-who-knows. This is a non-dual kind of knowing. A knowing which is not usurped.
I don’t see anything that has not changed (is not changing). But that’s just my experience.
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Does change makes any sense without no-change?
If you meditate, and for example thoughts end, do you really experience from inside that now you have changed? If you become progressively still, do you really experience that you change? Really?
Arising and ceasing makes sense to me. Ceasing and no more arising also makes sense to me.
There were thoughts and then they ceased.
I belief that the one who knows the progressieve stilling of formations in jhana and arupa jhana has a sense he/she does not change at all during this progressive stilling. I belief this is because becoming progressively still only means becoming more and more oneself. Starting to see ones true face. Starting to see the deep ocean and not only the waves.
I think in sannavedayitanirodha this is seen in the most direct way, when all khandha’s, rimples/waves, have ceased but you, as the knowing, did not. I think this brings one beyond birth and death. Rebirth has ended because one has during life already seen the truth beyond birth and death and decay, the deathless.
If there is no truth beyond birth and death, there is no escape. So, i belief, the Buddha saw during his life that the deepest truth about himself is that he already is beyond birth, decay and death. But, still identified with khandha’s, (waves ) we fail to see this ourselves.
By the way, not beyond birth and death as in an eternal soul like way, but i think more like in a all-pervading knowing nature, intelligence, which is basic of life.
I guess if we are patient enough, even the deep oceans will disappear one day 
So, then there is no asankhata element to know?
My mind is released from limits:
Vimariyādikataṁ cittaṁ,
in this very life it will dissipate.
idheva vidhamissatī”ti.