SuttaCentral
I hadn’t thought about it in terms of emptiness, but that does make a lot of sense.
MN121:
“Whatever ascetics and brahmins enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness—whether in the past, future, or present—all of them enter and remain in this same pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness. So, Ānanda, you should train like this: ‘We will enter and remain in the pure, ultimate, supreme emptiness.’ That’s how you should train.””
I am interested as to where in the EBT’s there is something like the following actually stated:
It’s seems logical but is it necessarily so? Does everyone who engages in meditative seclusion with mindfulness with development of the faculties eventually arrive at jhanas?
Might it be better to explore and put into practice jhana-oriented teachings at the same time as the insight-oriented teachings along with the Sila to arrive at a holistic approach to the Dhamma?
???
There seems to be a difference between what you are saying and the import of the following quote - is that correct?
“Ajahn Chah often said Samatha and Vipassana cannot be separated, nor can the pair be developed apart from Right View, Right
Thought, Right Moral Conduct and so forth. Indeed, to make progress on the above seven stages, the meditator needs an understanding and acceptance of the Lord Buddha’s Teachings and one’s precepts must be pure. Insight will be needed to achieve each of these stages, that is insight into the meaning of ‘letting go’. The further one develops these stages, the more profound will be the insight, and if you reach as far as Jhana then it will change your whole understanding. As it were, Insight dances around Jhana and Jhana dances around Insight. This is the Path to Nibbana, the Lord Buddha said, ‘for one who indulges in Jhana, four results are to be expected: Stream-Winner, Once-Returner, NonReturner or Arahant’ (Pasadika Sutta, Digha Nikaya)” - Ajahn Brahm
I understand ‘supreme emptiness’ as Nibbana. But the smaller discourse on emptiness cannot be read on its own. It needs to be placed in the wider context of the dhamma. Thinking of emptiness and emptying won’t lead to stopping craving. Seeing impermanence constantly shows a path leading to dispassion and cessation of phenomena.
What do you mean by this term, and how do you generate in it?
Do these have to be 100% ‘purified’?
Is insight needed for purification of the precepts?
Alara Kalama and Uddakaramaputta taught Arupa jhana but had no insight. Nigatanataputta seems to be able to access the first jhana. These are not states specific to the Dhamma.
I don’t know these people, they lived a long time ago, or so it seems, that’s what it says in the book. The way we find out about samadhi ‘really’ is through first hand experience. Then, we know what samadhi means. We have to get beyond the descriptions contained in the books - who had it, who didn’t, what are the implications, what does it all mean - maybe! If this doesn’t happen there is no possibility of understanding these teachings clearly.
We can pre-decide that our theory is correct and accept and ignore what is convenient and/or non-concordant with that. I think it’s better to put down the theory derived from personal experiences and take a fresh look at the entirety of the teachings less we set ourselves up as attained.
I agree, it’s good to understand what’s in the books clearly. It’s even better when we also see what the a teaching is pointing to through direct experience. When this happens we understand the teachings in a new light.
Agreed. It is impossible to notice the blind spots on the radar! A kalyanamitta is required therefore.
When a tadpole hops out of the water they discover what the air feels like for the first time. Nobody needs to tell them this is not like water - it’s apparent here and now - self evident.
Our experience might not agree:
There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it; pursuing it—his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. SuttaCentral
’…the path is born…’
This Path is likely to be the Noble eightfold path ie entering of the stream.
These four kinds of indulgence in pleasure, when developed and cultivated, lead solely to disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment. What four? SuttaCentral
It’s difficult (or impossible) to attain ‘disillusionment, dispassion, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment’ if it weren’t for jhana.
@Laurence, I agree with Mat. I was just about to post my own link to AN4.170 when I read Mat’s answer. I also like Bhante Sujato’s translation.
For example, it would appear that you might be drawn to the path of
serenity before discernment
And that I am drawn to
serenity and discernment in conjunction
There are two other paths:
discernment before serenity (Wynne?)
seized by restlessness to realize the teaching (the FIERCE path!)
No wonder we keep going around and around on this. We are on different paths ascending the same mountain. 
When the tadpole hops out and sees his friends around they share their amazement. The taddy’s still immersed don’t share the amazement. They imagine what it might be like and that’s about it - how could it be otherwise?
The greatest recipe is not equal to a crust of 
I first started mindfulness of breath in 2000. I found the stillness and unification astonishing. It was not easy finding a way out of a forest of thought. Nimittas appeared. One reminded me of a Nike trademark following the tide of the breath. Light scattered and coalesced. The whitened mind was uplifted. I found it to be a different state like being motionless inside an ice-cube. I focused even more. I achieved deeper states of consciousness. I began to wonder if they were jhana. I later confirmed it with a teacher of jhana. But I had heard of mastery of jhana. So I learnt to enter this deep consciousness at will, remain as long and exit. I can absorb into each of the factors one by one and experience them. I confirmed the jhana factors and their progression. I know if I focused I can sense the body. I know the limitless expansion of Arupa attainment and that there is no 9th jhana. I am unable to enter cessation of feeling and perception currently as that is only possible for an anagamin-phala or Arahant released in both ways according to the Buddha. I am writing all this as I think it is useful for elucidating the dhamma around jhana.
While I was initially practicing jhana I thought mistakenly that I was practicing insight. It’s easy to confound the one with the other however I learnt which was which.
I was watching the sense stimuli arising and passing away and noting each arising one after the next. The effect of this was understanding that the world isn’t in three dimensional form, but construed to be like this ie. our experience is only a representation. I saw there was much in it which was creations of the mind and not found in ‘reality’.
I’m going to stop there. My conviction is not based only on scripture but on my personal experiences of jhana and insight and the rest of the path of dhamma.
Gotta whole lotta (I) goin on there
No doubt you are sincere
Best wishes
I could have worded it differently. I left it in to show that ‘I’ vanished only with the insight steps which I hadn’t described so far. I think its difficult to know whether I am sincere or not unless our experiences are concordant.
Hi Mat,
Does perception of form and flesh completely disappear in this state ? What’s it like ? Do all notions of solidity, temperature, physical constraints etc. vanish ? Dhyanic absorptions based on arupa-concepts were mentioned by the Buddha as one form of escape from materiality.
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “There are these three properties for escape. Which three? This is the escape from sensuality: renunciation. This is the escape from form: formlessness. And as for whatever has come into being, is fabricated & dependently co-arisen, the escape from that is cessation. These are the three properties for escape.”
Yes, I think nibbana is possible only if one faces the future with just a begging bowl and stands unperturbed, knowing that there are no attachments or dependencies left to protect or defend.
In a sensual realm (kamma loka) the mind is distracted going to all 6 sense doors. In the form jhana it is mainly mental but with intention awareness can be directed to the body and the breath as well. So I used the breath to continue to focus. However in a well purified 4th jhana there is no breath, and beyond that is like stepping off a cliff (if the cliff was ‘material’) and hanging in ‘mid-air’ looking at the skies with meditation objects like emptiness, endless space etc.
Yes, as these are features of for (Rupa).
Temporary- like jumping up. The following is true escape- like inside a black hole!
I’ve had the experience of everything suddenly opening out, like coming out of a long tunnel into bright sunlight. That was meditating with eyes open, a method I originally picked up in Tibetan Buddhism.