The case for bare awareness?

Discussion
163

No. For me it is the same.

The emptiness of climbing and the emptiness of meditation are exactly the same as the emptiness of cutting vegetables. And it is a kind emptiness.

Perhaps part of the difficulty is that movies have presented a distorted view of what climbing can be like. For some climbing has been a path of conquest, excitement and accomplishment. But I am not Tom Cruise.

For me, climbing has been a journey back to the peace found in meditation. For me, climbing, meditation and bare awareness have become synonymous. I meditate when I climb. It is climbing meditation. It is bare because it is empty and enough.

:pray:

164

There is nothing wrong with rock-climbing as a wonderful mindfulness practice. All that is being said is: there is no climbing, moving about in deep natural stillness - jhana. We have been discussing jhana and it’s relationship to bare awareness - correct?

Bare awareness is a blessing when we climb on things and, after we climb-off as well. If it is sustained and unbroken jhana is an inevitable consequence - sooner or later. That’s all I meant to convey - plain and simple.

The marble was set in motion because a hand let go of it otherwise, the marble would not have dropped. If there was no volition, no intention to drop anything why did the :raised_hand: open? Was it dropped accidentally?

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165

Mindfulness and Samadhi are the last two factors in the eightfold path. Mindfulness is good but there is also samadhi. The Buddha taught that right-samadhi is the jhanas. Without jhanas liberating insight is unlikely. The Buddha taught in order to help us to awaken - as he had? He taught suffering and the hearts sure release.

166

Yes. The release of the marble is volitional. Just like sitting down to meditate. The point about the marble is that it enters and exits the tube on its own without volition of its own. And the same happens as we enter and exit some meditative states. I think this is a restatement of what you said.

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167

Finally - close enough!

Jettison the we - I and, me - the doer dissolves. There is a temporary dissolution in samadhi.

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168

I’m aware that we bare-ly made it. :rofl:

169

I ‘believe’ volition, intention, is involved in why there is a change of posture - from standing to sitting. However, what happens once the process of natural stillness starts to deepen?

It’s not unlike the growth and development of a seedling. A seedling will develop into a plant if it grows in the right soil, has enough water and sunlight etc.

The growth of the seedling has nothing to do with it ‘intending’ to grow. There’s no volition that arises in the ‘mind’ of a seedling.

Likewise, with calming and settling into deep stillness. If the right conditions are present there is nothing that can be ‘done’ by the meditator to prevent it from happening.

It happens by itself when the sense of a doer dissolves, is lost to the beauty. The meditating subject dissappears, it simply vanishes.

I don’t want to give the impression that this vanishing is something humdrum and commonplace. It’s not like quietly dozing-off when we go to sleep.

When immersion ends, it’s not like waking up in the morning. After samadhi it’s not like waking up after a good night’s sleep.

The vanishing of subjectivity is abrupt. There is literally no subjectivity, no awareness of a physical body - no edge, no outline and, nothing inside the physical body, no sensory contact. Those forms of consciousness and, perceptions have completely ceased without trace.

It’s a radical departure from the known and when the sense of self returns it soon becomes clear that something very different from normality has taken place.

This happening inevitably tells you something about your normal state that you had always taken for granted. It ‘was’ just a given i.e. I am - the sense of being someone is not something fundamental and inescapable. It’s possible to imagine not being somebody but this, is not a product of the imagination.

It’s ‘actually’ a completely new discovery, as if, we had been living under water all our life and suddenly there is the discovery of the atmosphere, dry land, the world we live in.

If this is not a radical insight I don’t know what else you could call it?

170

I recently listened to a meditation instruction by Bhante Sujato, and it was framed in a different way to usual.

The instruction was to sit and be in a receptive calm state and let the samadhi come to you… as a counterpoint to the mistake that many make by exerting too much effort in trying to get to the state. It reminded me of Ajahn Chahs teachings on being still like a jungle pond, and letting everything occur around you. I use this quite often as part of my practice, obviously I really like it. Sometimes I even think of deeper states of samadhi as a super shy, fragile, transcendental butterfly - my job… the body and the mind… is to be a nice place for it to choose to come… that the goodwill and peacefulness has a welcoming atmosphere that would make it want to snuggle up and have a little rest :slight_smile: :butterfly:

The point is that I have a lovely time, whether the :butterfly: visits today or not

Regarding your converstaion, only the sitting involves volition… the rest is about calming it all down and becoming completely still :slight_smile: :butterfly: :ear_of_rice: :butterfly:
So still that one is no longer there… just a nice resting place for passing transcendental butterfly’s

I don’t wish to engage in discussion about the relative merits of this, I just wanted to share my experience .

:butterfly::anjal:

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171

Thankyou for sharing it’s much appreciated.

This is what I have been trying to say and, how bare awareness is related to this insight. :heart_eyes:

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172

:heart: yes.

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173

[quote=“Mat, post:131, topic:11643”]
Ajhan Brahm is denying there is such thing as samatha and insight (while you don’t seem to be), at least in the portions you are quoting.[/quote]

Really! Are you sure? (I thought that he followed Ajahn Chah in considering them components/attributes/attainments of the same path.)
Edit: @Mat, not sure how to rescue quote.

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Mat seemed to be saying that I was affirming the distinction between Samatha and Vipassana and Ajahn Brahm was saying the ‘Buddha’ taught bhavana - he didn’t make that distinction. As to why he came to the conclusion that I was ‘perhaps’ discussing Samatha and ignoring Insight is probably due to his commitment to a vipassana-oriented point of view. As you may know, there are many Vipassana enthusiasts who feel that their tradition is the greatest thing since sliced :bread:. They are sometimes heard warning people to shy away from to much involvement or interest in Samadhi. Some even claim that Jhana teachings and practices are dangerous. Ajahn Brahm has done his best to correct this absurd paranoia. The Buddha passed away in jhanic-absorption. His jhana teachings are the last factor in the eightfold path. Clearly, these teachings are indispensable when it comes to practicing the Dhamma. The Buddha taught bhavana, the Samatha/Vipassana split is something that developed later on. I have been told that the term ‘vipassana’ is fairly rare in the EBT’s but Jhana is a common theme in the suttas.

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175

If something goes away for a period of time, and then comes back ie the five hindrances, then maybe a better word can be used. Traditionally it is expressed as ‘suppressing the hindrances’.

Deep meditative samatha states are not considered letting-go: SuttaCentral

Insight practice is hiding in plain sight. Aggregates, DO, sense doors etc would not be apparent to a pure jhana meditator.

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176

Fair enough, if you don’t feel the term ‘letting go’ is appropriate in the context of jhana teachings. Ajahn Brahm uses this term in jhana teachings without hesitation. He refers to jhanas as the stages of letting go. I have not found his teachings troubling. Am I what you define as a pure jhana meditator? How would you know that - exactly?

177

This reminded me of an Ajahn Chah quote:
"Try to be mindful. And let things take their natural course.
Then your mind will become still in any surroundings – like a clear forest pool.
All kinds of wonderful, rare animals will come to drink at the pool – and you will clearly see the nature of all things. You will see many strange and wonderful things come and go, but you will be still.
This is the happiness of the Buddha."

I have a sense that the stillness is always present, but usually it’s obscured by all the clutter of the mind and senses. So perhaps it’s more like reconnecting with something than trying to develop it - developing samadhi would then be a means of reducing the clutter or “noise”?

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178

It’s only a caricature, but I wouldn’t rule out someone not having much experience with the wisdom practices and teachings. I don’t know you well but you come across having a good appreciation of jhana and wisdom.

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“But these, Cunda, are not called expungings in the discipline for an ariyan; these are called: ‘abidings in ease here-now’ in the discipline for an ariyan.” - MN8

Is this why you don’t approve of the term ‘letting go’ being used when it comes to jhanas?

‘Abidings in ease here-now’ tells us that jhanas are easeful and accessible here-now. This definition does not tell us anything about the process itself. It simply tells us they are pleasant and there not about the past or future.

The language of letting-go is used to provide a deeper understanding of the process itself.

Anyone who is reasonably familiar with the early strata of the teachings would be confused if they didn’t understand the difference between the jhana teachings and those that refer to the Aryan attainments - awakening.

The term ‘expunging’ is not identical to letting-go either - is it? I really don’t see why you have this concern?

180

vipassana occurs in 23 suttas.
jhana occurs in at least 100 suttas.

That resonates with me as well, most especially after reading MN121

The word “suppressing” can be misread to imply that one is actively smashing down the hindrances as one meditates. However, I take your meaning as that the process of meditation itself naturally frees one temporarily from the hindrances, lifting us up temporarily into bliss with no volition on our part. Where right effort is called for is diligence in meditating.

A mendicant who is entering such an attainment does not think:
‘I will enter the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I am entering the cessation of perception and feeling’ or ‘I have entered the cessation of perception and feeling.’
Rather, their mind has been previously developed so as to lead to such a state.”
–mn44/en/sujato

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181

And, vice versa! The thing is, without samadhi the wisdom teachings are not fully understood and ‘realised’. Without samadhi the ability to see-through appearances is difficult. There can be a partial ‘seeing’ - insight.

If, this is not the case, what would be wrong with a 7-fold path? Why not jettison the 8th factor- right-samadhi - or see it as an optional extra?

Do you disagree - am I mistaken?

182

The cessation of perception state mentioned below is a culmination of samatha and insight practices.

It’s only attained by anagamins and arahanths (attained both-ways).

I’m not attached to jhana or vipassana but see both as essential. Jhana without vipassana will lead to the 8th jhana (4th ‘arupa attainment’) and not cessation of perception and feeling. Vipassana only path is an impossibility, as the meditative seclusion with mindfulness with the development of the faculties will eventually lead to samadhi and jhana (I don’t believe in ‘vipassana jhana’ where insight states were rebranded as such).

The Noble Eightfold path contains both samatha and vipassana and other factors required.

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