The cessation of perception and feelings: a temporary nibbāna?

I think something like the Āsīvisopamasutta SN 35.238 needs to be considered.

‘Four lethal poisonous vipers’ is a term for the four primary elements: cattāro āsīvisā uggatejā ghoravisāti kho, bhikkhave, catunnetaṁ mahābhūtānaṁ adhivacanaṁ— the elements of earth, water, fire, and air. pathavīdhātuyā, āpodhātuyā, tejodhātuyā, vāyodhātuyā.

‘Five deadly enemies’ is a term for the five grasping aggregates, that is: Pañca vadhakā paccatthikāti kho, bhikkhave, pañcannetaṁ upādānakkhandhānaṁ adhivacanaṁ, seyyathidaṁ— form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness. rūpupādānakkhandhassa, vedanupādānakkhandhassa, saññupādānakkhandhassa, saṅkhārupādānakkhandhassa, viññāṇupādānakkhandhassa.

‘The sixth hidden killer with a drawn sword’ is a term for relishing and greed. Chaṭṭho antaracaro vadhako ukkhittāsikoti kho, bhikkhave, nandīrāgassetaṁ adhivacanaṁ.

‘Empty village’ is a term for the six interior sense fields. Suñño gāmoti kho, bhikkhave, channetaṁ ajjhattikānaṁ āyatanānaṁ adhivacanaṁ. If an astute, competent, clever person investigates this in relation to the eye, it appears vacant, hollow, and empty. Cakkhuto cepi naṁ, bhikkhave, paṇḍito byatto medhāvī upaparikkhati rittakaññeva khāyati, tucchakaññeva khāyati, suññakaññeva khāyati …pe… If an astute, competent, clever person investigates this in relation to the ear … nose … tongue … body … jivhāto cepi naṁ, bhikkhave …pe… mind, it appears vacant, hollow, and empty. manato cepi naṁ, bhikkhave, paṇḍito byatto medhāvī upaparikkhati rittakaññeva khāyati, tucchakaññeva khāyati, suññakaññeva khāyati.

‘Bandits who raid villages’ is a term for the six exterior sense fields. Corā gāmaghātakāti kho, bhikkhave, channetaṁ bāhirānaṁ āyatanānaṁ adhivacanaṁ. The eye is struck by both agreeable and disagreeable sights. Cakkhu, bhikkhave, haññati manāpāmanāpesu rūpesu; The ear … sotaṁ, bhikkhave …pe… nose … ghānaṁ, bhikkhave …pe… tongue … jivhā, bhikkhave, haññati manāpāmanāpesu rasesu; body … kāyo, bhikkhave …pe… mind is struck by both agreeable and disagreeable ideas. mano, bhikkhave, haññati manāpāmanāpesu dhammesu.

‘Large deluge’ is a term for the four floods: Mahā udakaṇṇavoti kho, bhikkhave, catunnetaṁ oghānaṁ adhivacanaṁ— the floods of sensual pleasures, desire to be reborn, views, and ignorance. kāmoghassa, bhavoghassa, diṭṭhoghassa, avijjoghassa.

‘The near shore that’s dubious and perilous’ is a term for substantial reality. Orimaṁ tīraṁ sāsaṅkaṁ sappaṭibhayanti kho, bhikkhave, sakkāyassetaṁ adhivacanaṁ.

‘The far shore, a sanctuary free of peril’ is a term for extinguishment. Pārimaṁ tīraṁ khemaṁ appaṭibhayanti kho, bhikkhave, nibbānassetaṁ adhivacanaṁ.

‘The raft’ is a term for the noble eightfold path, that is: Kullanti kho, bhikkhave, ariyassetaṁ aṭṭhaṅgikassa maggassa adhivacanaṁ, seyyathidaṁ— right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion. sammādiṭṭhi …pe… sammāsamādhi.

‘Paddling with hands and feet’ is a term for rousing energy. Tassa hatthehi ca pādehi ca vāyāmoti kho, bhikkhave, vīriyārambhassetaṁ adhivacanaṁ.

‘Crossed over, gone beyond, the brahmin stands on the shore’ is a term for a perfected one.” Tiṇṇo pāraṅgato thale tiṭṭhati brāhmaṇoti kho, bhikkhave, arahato etaṁ adhivacanan”ti.

And Upādānaparipavattasutta SN 22.56

And what is perception? Katamā ca, bhikkhave, saññā? There are these six classes of perception: Chayime, bhikkhave, saññākāyā— perceptions of sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, and ideas. rūpasaññā, saddasaññā, gandhasaññā, rasasaññā, phoṭṭhabbasaññā, dhammasaññā. This is called perception. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, saññā. Perception originates from contact. Phassasamudayā saññāsamudayo; When contact ceases, perception ceases. phassanirodhā saññānirodho. The practice that leads to the cessation of perceptions is simply this noble eightfold path … Ayameva ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo saññānirodhagāminī paṭipadā, seyyathidaṁ— sammādiṭṭhi …pe… sammāsamādhi …pe… vaṭṭaṁ tesaṁ natthi paññāpanāya.

And Uṇṇābhabrāhmaṇasutta SN 48.42

“Brahmin, these five faculties have different scopes and different ranges, and don’t experience each others’ scope and range. “Pañcimāni, brāhmaṇa, indriyāni nānāvisayāni nānāgocarāni na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṁ paccanubhonti. What five? Katamāni pañca? The faculties of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body. Cakkhundriyaṁ, sotindriyaṁ, ghānindriyaṁ, jivhindriyaṁ, kāyindriyaṁ. These five faculties, with their different scopes and ranges, have recourse to the mind. And the mind experiences their scopes and ranges.” Imesaṁ kho, brāhmaṇa, pañcannaṁ indriyānaṁ nānāvisayānaṁ nānāgocarānaṁ na aññamaññassa gocaravisayaṁ paccanubhontānaṁ mano paṭisaraṇaṁ, manova nesaṁ gocaravisayaṁ paccanubhotī”ti.

“But Mister Gotama, what does the mind have recourse to?” “Manassa pana, bho gotama, kiṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti?

“The mind has recourse to mindfulness.” “Manassa kho, brāhmaṇa, sati paṭisaraṇan”ti.

“But what does mindfulness have recourse to?” “Satiyā pana, bho gotama, kiṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti?

“Mindfulness has recourse to freedom.” “Satiyā kho, brāhmaṇa, vimutti paṭisaraṇan”ti.

“But what does freedom have recourse to?” “Vimuttiyā pana, bho gotama, kiṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti?

“Freedom has recourse to extinguishment.” “Vimuttiyā kho, brāhmaṇa, nibbānaṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti.

“But what does extinguishment have recourse to?” “Nibbānassa pana, bho gotama, kiṁ paṭisaraṇan”ti?

“This question goes too far, brahmin! You weren’t able to grasp the limit of questioning. “Accayāsi, brāhmaṇa, pañhaṁ, nāsakkhi pañhassa pariyantaṁ gahetuṁ. For extinguishment is the culmination, destination, and end of the spiritual life.” Nibbānogadhañhi, brāhmaṇa, brahmacariyaṁ vussati nibbānaparāyaṇaṁ nibbānapariyosānan”ti.

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And also there is the matter of cessation of feeling in cessation of perception and feelings. Maybe I missed discussion on this somehow, but there are some suttas on dependent arising of feeling that I think should be considered, such as

Phassamūlakasutta (SN 36.10)

“Mendicants, these three feelings are born, rooted, sourced, and conditioned by contact. “Tisso imā, bhikkhave, vedanā phassajā phassamūlakā phassanidānā phassapaccayā. …

Pleasant, painful, and neutral feeling. Sukhā vedanā, dukkhā vedanā, adukkhamasukhā vedanā.

Pleasant feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as pleasant. Sukhavedaniyaṁ, bhikkhave, phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati sukhā vedanā.

With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as pleasant, the corresponding pleasant feeling ceases and stops. Tasseva sukhavedaniyassa phassassa nirodhā, yaṁ tajjaṁ vedayitaṁ sukhavedaniyaṁ phassaṁ paṭicca uppannā sukhā vedanā, sā nirujjhati, sā vūpasammati.

Painful feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as painful. Dukkhavedaniyaṁ, bhikkhave, phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati dukkhā vedanā. With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as painful, the corresponding painful feeling ceases and stops. Tasseva dukkhavedaniyassa phassassa nirodhā, yaṁ tajjaṁ vedayitaṁ dukkhavedaniyaṁ phassaṁ paṭicca uppannā dukkhā vedanā, sā nirujjhati, sā vūpasammati.

Neutral feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as neutral. Adukkhamasukhavedaniyaṁ, bhikkhave, phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati adukkhamasukhā vedanā. With the cessation of that contact to be experienced as neutral, the corresponding neutral feeling ceases and stops. Tasseva adukkhamasukhavedaniyassa phassassa nirodhā, yaṁ tajjaṁ vedayitaṁ adukkhamasukhavedaniyaṁ phassaṁ paṭicca uppannā adukkhamasukhā vedanā, sā nirujjhati, sā vūpasammati.

When you rub two sticks together, heat is generated and fire is produced. But when you part the sticks and lay them aside, any corresponding heat ceases and stops. Seyyathāpi, bhikkhave, dvinnaṁ kaṭṭhānaṁ saṅghaṭṭanasamodhānā usmā jāyati, tejo abhinibbattati. Tesaṁyeva kaṭṭhānaṁ nānābhāvā vinikkhepā, yā tajjā usmā, sā nirujjhati, sā vūpasammati.

In the same way, these three feelings are born, rooted, sourced, and conditioned by contact. Evameva kho, bhikkhave, imā tisso vedanā phassajā phassamūlakā phassanidānā phassapaccayā.

The appropriate feeling arises dependent on the corresponding contact. Tajjaṁ phassaṁ paṭicca tajjā vedanā uppajjanti. When the corresponding contact ceases, the appropriate feeling ceases.” Tajjassa phassassa nirodhā tajjā vedanā nirujjhantī”ti.

Myself I have some questions about the translation, because in English the meaning makes me uncomfortable and I rather think it should read:

Pleasant feelings (A pleasant tone) arise dependant upon contact with feelings (sensations) of ease.
Suffering feelings ( A suffering tone) arise dependant upon contact with feelings (sensations) of pain
Neutral feelings (A flat tone) arise dependant upon contract with feelings of indifference (lack of sensation)

Feeling arises dependent upon the corresponding contact. When the contact ceases the corresponding feeling ceases.

However, this is neither here nor there except to think about what this sutta might actually mean.

At any rate, the six dwelling places of contact (channaṁ phassāyatanānaṁ) are clearly the critical juncture in cessation of perception and feeling.

There are two sutta that point to this (and some in which Buddha directly states that contact is the thing). SN 12.63 and MN 146

No the sutta doesn’t mean this.

It means contact with things to be experienced as painful produces painful feelings. Eg. skin touch needle: painful feelings arises. In general, touching needle is a contact to be experienced as painful.

Mind contact the 1st Jhāna (gone into absorption), the feeling is blissful, because the 1st Jhāna has joy and happiness, it is to be experienced as blissful.

I read:

  • Iti 44 mention two types of nibbana, including nibbana with experience

  • The word parinibbāyati (MN 37) refer to nibbana with experience

  • Nibbana defined as (MN 26) the calming of all activities, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, extinguishment.

It reads as though AN 9.34 is saying Nibbana is not a feeling but to the contrary is something like letting go, dispassion & cessation.

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