The connection between stream entry and noble eightfold path

[stu]

@Saurabh

…as person can attain stream-entry only after following noble eightfold path truly and strictly….

My understanding is (was!?) that entering the stream is entering the noble eightfold path. Before that, we’re making our way to the path, but we’re not actually on it. But I may be confused. What do you think? …

“Sāriputta, they speak of a ‘factor of stream-entry’. What is a factor of stream-entry?”

“Sir, the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘the stream’. What is the stream?”

“Sir, the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”

“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

SN 5.55

[Saurabh]

@stu

Sāriputta, they speak of a ‘factor of stream-entry’. What is a factor of stream-entry?”

“Sir, the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the factors of stream-entry are associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, proper attention, and practicing in line with the teaching.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘the stream’. What is the stream?”

“Sir, the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”

“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

SN 5.55

Thank you sir.
Now this above sutta clears many doubts. So this stream means stream of noble eightfold path! Stream of dhamma means stream of noble eightfold path.

@stu

My understanding is (was!?) that entering the stream is entering the noble eightfold path. Before that, we’re making our way to the path, but we’re not actually on it. But I may be confused. What do you think? …

So stream entry is actual realization/penetration of first truth of impermanence resulting in breaking of this identity view which gives rise to conceived self…then after realizing impermanence then anatta(non-self), then realisation of its cause which is tanha then truth of ending of suffering due to ending of cause(which is tanha) and lastly the path that leads to it which is n8fp… subsequent arising of unshakable confidence/faith in triple jewel of buddha(supreme teacher), dhamma(teachings) and sangha of true disciples.

So it’s in short entry into pure dhamma/noble eightfold path… journey is merely started and many many defilements/kleshas are cut permanently, lower five are merely index in a big book of kleshas, as thousands of defilements are cut permanently…hence it is actually very very hard to attain such a penetration into reality, very very easier said than done. Tremendous efforts are required as defilements carried from innumerable time periods are cut.

@stu

making our way to the path, but we’re not actually on it. But I may be confused. What do you think?

Earlier I used to think that noble eightfold path is to be walked in order to attain stream-entry…but now I understand it as you said above…we are actually making our way to that path, stream-entry means real start of following that noble eightfold path.

@paul1

The major realization of the four noble truths occurs at stream-entry, from then on it’s just a matter of developing skills until they become faculties. That’s why Samyutta Nikaya 48.53 does not mention the 4NT for the adept, but says the distinguishing quality there is complete command of the five spiritual faculties, conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, discernment, which have been progressively developed.

So it’s like this four noble truths are real base of reality unseen to the ordinary beings because of defilements…after this base is seen…then real journey begins of ending all the problems permanently…and success is seen as complete command of five spiritual faculties(can you plz tell me what are those???)…then conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, discernment…as you said above sir… am I right?

@CurlyCarl

My personal answer here is no. I imagine the 4th & 3rd noble truths are first realized by a stream-enterer, then later the 1st & 2nd. I think a stream-enterer can only truly, with their heart, clearly realize the 1st & 2nd noble truths after they have experienced the 3rd. The 1st noble truth seems to summarize all suffering as attachment (upadana). I think realizing all attachment is suffering can only occur when the contrasting peace of non-attachment (3rd truth) is experienced.

I think based on above replies, it should be appropriate to say that actually all the four truths are realized…in stream-entry…it must be like visiting some place so beautiful that we cannot maintain that more than sine moments, and it was too beautiful that it changes you completely…you don’t remain same…you become truly good person, selfless one, one who has abandoned evil tendencies including latent ones, destroyed tendencies which take one away from real happiness, one worthy of obeisance and veneration. That’s how I see it now.

Also it is said that stream-enterer cannot do five heinous/most evil acts(drawing blood of buddha…so on)…so it must be that… stream-enterer has cut off the latent tendency to do those acts. This shows that generally all have those tendencies (not-being a stream-enterer)…it’s not that we will do it…but we are capable of going in that direction if such situation arises… tomorrow (future births) if not today as we don’t know which tendencies will be carried in next birth. Stream-entry means whatever be the situation one will not do those acts(karmas) and alike acts.

[Saurabh]

@Green

I feel that when dhamma-eye is opened one also sees the relative use of virtue, good deeds, development, effort

Exactly sir…I completely agree with your above statement…that’s why it’s actually hard for ordinary people like us to recognise which monk is stream-enterer, once-returner, non-returner, arhat… We don’t have dhamma eye to see dhamma in others.

I believe these great noble beings can understand perfectly relative use of virtue hence…they can for example actually get angry on their student if it will benefit him…as sometimes strong criticism can help someone in getting on right track.

@Green

Ofcourse, effort, development, virtue can bring good results, and that is good ofcourse , but also they will end.

I think you mean about realisation of impermanence here…

@Green

I do not think that every stream-entrent really knows first noble truth as Buddha did, such as the suffering of all beings in samsara, the pain of hell-beings, the affliction of peta’s, etc. Maybe not even the experiantial suffering of severe illness, old age, dying.

Ofcourse but it’s same to Buddha in the context of being basic truth of life/reality.

@Green

Maybe not even the experiantial suffering of severe illness, old age, dying.

It may not be same as buddha…or it maybe…but it is certain that stream-enterer knows about illness, old age, dying… more than ordinary beings like you and me. Because they have attained glimpse of permanence only because they have perfectly saw the impermanence in their own body itself in the first place(unlike us who just believe it,l to be true, but not have realised it yet). We are different in that, we actually don’t desire permanence to the extent that every stream-enterer does/did before attaining it.

[paul1]

@Saurabh

can you plz tell me what are those???)

Because of the breakthrough to the 4NT, at stream entry faith (conviction) becomes unshakable.

Five spiritual faculties:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part3.html

[Green]

@Saurabh

Thank you sir.
Now this above sutta clears many doubts. So this stream means stream of noble eightfold path! Stream of dhamma means stream of noble eightfold path.

The texts constant talk about the noble eightfold path as: right view, right intention, right…etc.

But here we have to see and understand, i believe, what is noble right view here as part of the stream? Do we talk here about, for example, believing in rebirth as right view? Believing in kamma? What is right view as part of the stream which leads out of samsara? What is right intention? What is right effort as part of the stream?

[Adutiya]

It might be helpful for you to further consider the Four Noble Truths with the Three Turnings as is presented in SN56.11

3 turning 12 line means what?

Hi friends , Can someone explain 3 & 12 ? Or how it actually works ? Is it a way of meditation ?

The Three Turnings of the Wheel

I couldn’t find a discussion on the Three Turnings of the Wheel of Dhamma, so I wanted to get your opinion on it. I assume they’re not considered authentic - historically speaking - and buddhavacana? Is their content at least in line with the buddhadhamma of the EBTs in your opinion? When I see all the great thinkers of the Tibetan tradition (Je Tsongkhapa, Milarepa, etc.) and of Mayahana in general (Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Dharmakirti, Asanga, Vasubandhu, Shantideva, etc.), when I see the de…

[Nimal]

@Saurabh

So principally realisation of first noble truth means stream-entry, am I right?

The first noble truth is suffering associated with impermanence. When it is understood, one must be able to understand the not self nature of all phenomena as well. This then exposes the futility of craving which is the second noble truth, the cessation and the path.
When someone has understood this much, he or she is considered as having the right view which is the first path factor. One who is established on right view afaik is a stream winner. It is like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel but the light is still too far away. Bur he or she has no turning back from the path until they complete it in a maximum of seven existences.
With Metta

[CurlyCarl]

@Saurabh

Also it is said that stream-enterer cannot do five heinous/most evil acts

Personally, I regard the above as not relevant in a practical way. I imagine there are millions of puthujjana (common worldlings) unable to commit the five heinous acts.

[Saurabh]

@CurlyCarl

Personally, I regard the above as not relevant in a practical way. I imagine there are millions of puthujjana (common worldlings) unable to commit the five heinous acts.

Yes sir but it is because there is dhamma present in this era some way or other way. Dispensation of Lord Gautama Buddha is there in the world that’s why millions of putthujana are unable to committ those heinous acts. In future if many are born in era …In the absence of dhamma(as we generally don’t know where our future birth will be and which tendencies will surface during birth), given the conditions, I believe many are actually capable of doing bad deeds. Anyways yes it is actually not relevent in practical way as you say😅.

[Saurabh]

@Green

what is noble right view here as part of the stream? Do we talk here about, for example, believing in rebirth as right view? Believing in kamma? What is right view as part of the stream which leads out of samsara? What is right intention? What is right effort as part of the stream?

Not believing but knowing perfectly…and right view is the view that whatever comes, it goes, whenever there is birth, there is death, whenever there is start, there is end. Not believing in karma but actually destroying many of those fetters/kleshas/defilements which give rise to thes karmas which bring suffering. Right effort as part of stream should amount to effort which will be of benefit to one and others and which will not bring suffering to one and others.

We as normal putthujana actually don’t realise what is impermanence, we just know it as intellectual understanding, just a speculative accepted conclusion which is usually part of our thinking/discussion. Only when one sees/realises impermanence directly, can actually attain stream-entry… That’s how it should be I suppose.

[Saurabh]

@Nimal

The first noble truth is suffering associated with impermanence. When it is understood, one must be able to understand the not self nature of all phenomena as well. This then exposes the futility of craving which is the second noble truth, the cessation and the path.
When someone has understood this much, he or she is considered as having the right view which is the first path factor. One who is established on right view afaik is a stream winner. It is like seeing the light at the end of the tunnel but the light is still too far away. Bur he or she has no turning back from the path until they complete it in a maximum of seven existences.
With Metta

It is very well explained in few words.

[Saurabh]

Thank you sir …this has also clarified many doubts. It just shows how far away one is from truth, there is too much to be learned. This makes person more humble and lessens ego.

[Green]

@Saurabh

Not believing but knowing perfectly…and right view is the view that whatever comes, it goes, whenever there is birth, there is death, whenever there is start, there is end. Not believing in karma but actually destroying many of those fetters/kleshas/defilements which give rise to thes karmas which bring suffering. Right effort as part of stream should amount to effort which will be of benefit to one and others and which will not bring suffering to one and others.

I think it is important to see the difference between mundane noble eightfold path and supramundane noble eightfold path (MN117). The mundane path is not really’ the stream’ refered to in SN55.5, i believe. The stream refers to the supramundane right view etc.
But the texts often do not mention this distinction in mundane and supra mundane noble eightfold path. So, we have to figure out what is meant.

@Saurabh

We as normal putthujana actually don’t realise what is impermanence, we just know it as intellectual understanding, just a speculative accepted conclusion which is usually part of our thinking/discussion. Only when one sees/realises impermanence directly, can actually attain stream-entry… That’s how it should be I suppose.

I think most people are aware of impermanence. They loose loved ones. They see the seasons changings every year. The weather. The decay around them. The impermanence of computer, telephone, flowers, of body, of mind etc etc.

But this realisation of impermanence only leads to distress, a feeling of being unprotected, unsafety, it is alarming. It makes anxious that we die, that loved ones die, that comfort is impermanent, jobs, beauty, status etc. I think people are very aware of this.

So, how can you explain that for some people the realisation of impermanence is really alarming and for another person it is the entree to peace? How does this work. How can the knowledge of impermanence be appeasing for one and for another person alarming?

[TeddyBear]

@Green

So, how can you explain that for some people the realisation of impermanence is really alarming and for another person it is the entree to peace? How does this work. How can the knowledge of impermanence be appeasing for one and for another person alarming

Because it is not the impermanence that the Buddha figured out/taught . This impermanence you are pointing out is visible /known even to anyone who who dont know dhamma. You dont need special dhamma knowledge to know that.

[Saurabh]

@Green

I think most people are aware of impermanence. They loose loved ones. They see the seasons changings every year. The weather. The decay around them. The impermanence of computer, telephone, flowers, of body, of mind etc etc.

Yes but most people (us) haven’t accepted impermanence as truth. We act as if impermanence can be escaped. We are attached to impermanence Because We lack wisdom. We don’t hate it in a sense that we don’t want to avoid that.
Say for example…one suffers Because of loss of loved ones…it’s because they haven’t purely accepted it as ultimate truth(or they can’t)…we know impermanence with stains(attachment), we don’t see it stainlessly hence we are not stream-enterers. We are puthujanas hence we don’t accept impermanence as ultimate truth, we just merely know that on the surface…or in other words this truth of impermanence doesn not penetrate us.

@Green

But this realisation of impermanence only leads to distress, a feeling of being unprotected, unsafety, it is alarming. It makes anxious that we die, that loved ones die, that comfort is impermanent, jobs, beauty, status etc.

Realisation of impermanence doesn’t lead to distress, it’s attachment(tanha/desire/want) to impermanent phenomenon(lack of wisdom) that leads to distress and all those things. Hence even though we are aware of impermanence we actually don’t want to part away with it or destroy it…that is the difference between ordinary knowledge and awareness of impermanence and realisation of impermanence as ultimate truth.

[Green]

@Saurabh

Hence even though we are aware of impermanence we actually don’t want to part away with it or destroy it…that is the difference between ordinary knowledge and awareness of impermanence and realisation of impermanence as ultimate truth.

I do not understand how you think realisation of impermanence as truth of life is eye-opening?

[Saurabh]

@Green

I do not understand how you think realisation of impermanence as truth of life is eye-opening?

It is eye-opening for one with wisdom and intention of ending suffering, we don’t seem to match that level of wisdom or intention to end suffering. I believe we realise it on surface only, not enough to penetrate it with the sword of wisdom, as we don’t even have sharp sword nor we want to use it that much. (I always see it as We lack the necessary intention and lack of necessary fulfillment of 10 perfections sir). That’s how I see it. That’s what explains to me the reason for(me) not being without many problems/sufferings.
What do you think?

[Green]

@Saurabh

What do you think?

Does impermanence lead to insight in 31 realms in samsara, in rebirth, in PS, in kamma, in all those existences? Does insight in impermanence mean one also sees that there is an escape, Nibbana? Does insight in impermanence automatically lead to strive for Nibbana?

Can one see the truth of impermanence and be a materialist? Or in other words, if one sees the truth of impermanence does one have always right views?

For me the eye-opening factor is seeing that any clinging is very normal but also really useless. It only contributes to suffering, pain, anxiety, heartache. It is a lost fight. I think this is the implication of seeing anicca. That is not really only about impermanence, but seeing anicca one sees that one is involved in an impossible mission to freeze reality, desiring to maintain it in a certain state, while that is naieve. Lost fight. Ignoble desires.

All constructed reality will deconstruct in time. Also mental constructed states as enthousiasm, optimisms, happiness and talents. Also things like strenght, succes, fame, health.
One sees that ones desires do not match with how reality is. There is mismatch. It is all very norman, human, but also a kind of naieve, those longings.

I also feel eye-opening is that you will not really change when you become more and more dispassionate and clinging weakens. It is not that you loose yourself. This is why the Buddha taught sakkaya ditthi as the first fetter. People have views like…so i am…passionate, quickly angry, loving, etc….that’s who i am…and while thinking so they have created an obstacle to let go. They are fettered by identityview.

It is impossibe to change the pure nature of mind. It is not that the nature of water really changes when you remove defilements. It only becomes more itself, pure water. i believe it is the same with mind and its adventitious defilments. We can only become more ourselves when defilements weaken and cease.

Ofcouse, in a sense it is huge change when defilements weaken and cease but one will not at all feel likeone has become a totally different person now. I can predict that! If one feels one has become a very different person, not even the first fetter, sakkya ditthi is abandoned.

[Saurabh]

@Green

? Does insight in impermanence automatically lead to strive for Nibbana?

I meant that, insight to impermanent doesn’t automatically lead to strive for nibbana, its seeing/experiencing nibbana which happens after seeing/experiencing impermanence…is what lead to natural strive for nibbana.

@Green

One sees that ones desires do not match with how reality is. There is mismatch. It is all very norman, human, but also a kind of naieve, those longings.

I don’t believe that what you said above is the only thing seen by one. After realising impermanence, then only one looks for permanence in reality, then only one takes nibbana as object/aim and when glimpse of nibbana is witnessed…then many defilements permanently break and then one enters the stream of dhamma/noble eightfold path. Now this person is bound for highest happiness irreversibly and cannot fall in lower realms. Now this person is not the “run of the mill” person who is sometimes mentioned in suttas who falls in hell after living long happy life in heaven.

Just seeing the truth of impermanence is not stream-entry, rather seeing/witnessing that which is permanence, for the first time, is what means stream-entry. All the 4 truths are witnessed even if it is for a moment. Thats how I see it.

[Green]

@Saurabh

Just seeing the truth of impermanence is not stream-entry, rather seeing/witnessing that which is permanence, for the first time, is what means stream-entry.

Maybe. Maybe it is not really about permanence but about actually tasting the unburdened whole pure nature of mind for the first time. Which fills one with a sense of completeness and wholeness. Not lacking anything. Not on fire, not burdened, not craving anything, without tendency, not in need for anything.

At that moment one really tastes that one can make an island of oneself, a refuge and there is a natural state of fulfillment, a state without hunger, without fear ,conceit, a rich state, whole, complete.