SuttaCentral
No. They would let her die on the steps of the Dhamma hall.
I would also add that playing “devil’s advocate” is inappropriate here; this isn’t a scholarly debate about some abstract theoretical principle. People turn away from the Dhamma (and actually actively grow to despise the Dhamma) because of these issues and they deserve to be taken seriously—not minimized by weaponizing the Dhamma.
Well, I think we need to widen the lens to see the real life implications of the current status quo. The real issues are not really our feelings. The real issue is access to teachings and support for the practice. The loss humanity suffers when the wisdom of the great ladies who are deeply practiced is not shared with the world. Also, the suffering that arises when women are structurally discriminated against.
In Nepal (and I think India) for example, women eating last, means they are malnourished, this also affects their children. Even at retreat centers in Myanmar eating last means the women are left sometimes with just rice to eat.
There are many studies showing that one of the best ways to increase the wellbeing of a whole community is to elevate the education and earning capacity of women.
In Thailand the statistics are 300 000 bhikkhus, 300 000 prostitutes, 30 000 nuns. If a young boy comes from a poor family he can receive a monastic education, a young girl could easily be sold into sex work. Also, she often believes this is her bad karma. One reason some women in Thailand and Myanmar often believe they have lesser karma is because they can’t be Sangha.
Also, the lesser status of women leads to lack of access to practice spaces. In the tradition I’m practicing in, for example - although due to the amazing advocacy of the Pa Auk Sayadaw the situation can be very good- in Sri Lanka the bhikkhu’s Branch has 5000 acres, and the nuns only 40. Also nuns can’t ordain there (as the monastery doesn’t want to take care of them when they are old or sick) but must ordain elsewhere. Not only that but many people want to give more land to the bhikkhus (who can’t accept it, as they have too much). At other places monastic women aren’t allowed or are given much worse and very noisy conditions in which to practice.
I could go in and on. But the different valuing translates into restricted access to support and practice opportunities (it took me 14 years to find a place I could really dedicate myself wholeheartedly to the practice! And for many the situation is worse). Also it’s a great loss for the world and the Buddhist community as a whole not to nourish those who could be great teachers and leaders.
In countries like Taiwan, Korea etc where there is more equality there are also many more educated, confident, deeply practiced monastic women.
Also the numbers of monastic women are much greater 50% or even more.
Also, I agree with you, Ehipassiko, how we work with our minds in the situation is important. It takes much practice to see clearly, receive the information our feelings, especially our anger send us about injustice and to be clear-eyed and articulate about this, and to be peaceful and accepting about things as they are. conditions as they are, while doing what we can to skillfully change them.
I think when we have spaces where we are able to share our feelings, discuss difficult issues, come up with solutions that work for everyone, as brothers and sisters in the Dhamma this is the middle way. Generally it means everyone being at the table though.
In the traditional structures, alas, I do see a lot of inferiority feelings (and all the negative outcomes and defilements that come with this) in female communities, and superiority feelings and entitlement and all the defilements, uninspiring behavior, lack of compassion and consideration that come with the belief of superior status in the male communities. This occurs even when monastics are amazingly accomplished in meditation. Form and environment has such a profound effect on us.
You’re right, I’ve edited my post. I’m not playing devil’s advocate, I’m being hesitant about owning my honest view.
Wow. How sad.
There are a huge number of nuns in most Mahayana countries. I think they outnumber monks in Taiwan now.
There used to be a documentary on YouTube about two girls in Ladakh who were best friends. One was forced to marry, but the other refused to marry and became a Buddhist nun. I can’t find the video now, though. Anyway, it’s quite interesting, and shows how ordination can be a path for women to achieve independence. By the way, the status of nuns in the remote Himlayan regions is pretty bad, but this nun went to Dharamshala for ordination and training. She actually had to try a few different nunneries because the first few were overflowing.
This website is run by a Western nun who lives in the US and is dedictaed to helping nun in those remote Himalayan areas: Jamyang | Welcome.
Yes, I think there may be 75% monastic women in Taiwan.
And, yes, indeed - as Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo says - for the Himalayan girls becoming a nun is a wonderful freedom - better than having many children, working constantly, and having a husband that gets drunk and beats you! One has the chance to live a meaningful life and study (at least at the places she and Ven Lekshe have established- in the past, before the efforts of these great western women who try to promote equality the Himalayan nuns were treated as servants and not given access to practice or studies)
Still, despite her great success in establishing the place for the nuns, and their complete competence in running it - she mentioned to me wryly once, if she wasn’t there, they would likely ask the monks to run the place. She hasn’t yet managed to instill in them the kind of confidence she is aiming to. So she must keep living for a while longer!
Yes, listening to each other and making space for the others’ feelings is so important. This seems particularly difficult in the Theravadin sangha. When one side doesn’t see the need for change, there’s not much you can work with them on.
Thank you, thank you 
Your honesty and openness is definitely appreciated!
I have a feeling that your voice will be unheard here, or poorly received, or misunderstood. Thank you for your courage.
Thank you, venerable 
Thank you for sharing. It’s hard to bring up these points in the context of a forum thread, which is quite impersonal in nature. But I feel that the sentiment of your comment is important. We need to do what we can to improve conditions of monastic practice for women. At the same time, it is true that we can do a lot about the suffering we experience in the mean time. It’s not that it’s the nuns responsibility to sort themselves out, and that’s problem solved. Not at all. Both systemic change and emotional healing are urgently needed.
might you have a reference for us? I would love to study that more. I was only able to find a reference to mothers of Buddhas passing away in seven days after birth.
(and thank you for your post)
This doesn’t appear in the suttas. It first appears in the Milindapañha (The Questions of King Milinda) as the view of Ven. Nāgasena. It seems that it likely developed because, in the suttas, the few laypeople who are reported to become arahants either died shortly afterward (perhaps most famously Bāhiya) or soon ordained (likely because lay life no longer held any interest for them). But this seems to be coincidental rather than causal.
I am continually inspired by nuns.
Here is an example:
I think it is important to acknowledge that opportunities and conditions are less favourable for women, and for other marginalised or disenfranchised groups - full stop. It is a highly complex area, and this situation, as far as I can tell, has existed as long as society has existed, with small variations in details and degree across space and time.
This is suffering. This is unfair. It is horrible to experience and to witness - Lets get that out of the way, it is simply a FACT. Those who wish to argue that there is no discrimination or difference in conditions, well they can argue among themselves - we shouldn’t waste time engaging in such silliness.
For me the crux of the issue is how to best deal with it.
My message here is not to despair 
The path is not closed off. It is here and now, and can be walked by anyone - today, this minute, this breath.
It may be more difficult for those of us disadvantaged through unfair conditions and the extra burden and obstacles are very real, and exert a real cost - but not impossible! Do not be discouraged, or feel that crossing over the stream is not available to YOU… It is… and really this is the only way to be free of all suffering inherent in Samsara.
Convincing others (those in positions of ‘power’) to do something about it is one thing - but we need to remember that the actions of others are out of our control. This doesn’t mean that some effort shouldn’t be expended in these pursuits, but only that ultimately it is out of our control. This in no way diminishes the real consequences of being subject to systemic unfairness - it just puts it in perspective.
I started to write a post to Ayya Vimalas essay, but withdrew it, as it became clear that it required more than a few paragraphs in a post. Also here, I want to acknowledge and enable full focus on Ayya Vimalayanis post about the lived experience of discrimination as a Bhikkhuni, and the negative impact that has on practice.
This subject has occupied me for a long period. As a dedicated practitioner, for whom ordination is not a possibility, I have had to work with what is available, and it has led to a different view of ‘the path’, including the role of ordination in following the Path. I have come to the conclusion that Ordination is not a requirement or necessity to practice to the very highest levels. It is true that hearing the True Dhamma is a necessity. While having access to an Ariya teacher, and being supported by a Sangha that adheres to the Dhamma/Vinaya are the most conducive conditions for practice, but sadly these conditions are hard to find today - for anyone - let alone women.
We are so blessed, all of us here at SC, for we have found the EBT’s and have access to what the Buddha actually taught. For years now I have been using the EBT’s, and the principles of dependent arising, to analyse and understand what conditions are necessary for which aspects of practice and how to incline in that direction . There is so much scope with this approach.
I am filled with hope and joy at the scope we all have for developing our Practice, fully in line with the Buddhas teachings, and to progress on that journey, with well constructed rafts, to cross over this turbulent, boulder and crocodile infested river, from ignorance and delusion to Liberation and freedom from suffering. Even when the Path seems so full of difficulty and obstacles, do not despair or give up!
Dear Ayya @vimalanyani
thank you for your post. These are sentiments which have been resonating heavily with me as I near the end of 2 years as a novice.
It’s not just the garudhammas, as you say, it’s all sorts of areas of discrimination and even how certain communities and wider society interpret certain rules, which feel quite oppressive.
I appreciate hearing the voices of other bhikkhunis on here and how they also struggle with these questions.
I wanted to just mention really briefly that I’ve found the teachings from Black American Dhamma teachers invaluable for working more skillfully with the difficult emotions that arise and can be constantly triggered re discrimination, lack of opportunities etc. How to relate skillfully to one’s anger and feelings (and the actual reality) of not being seen, being erased, not counting, being utterly disregarded, vulnerability etc. I found some interview’s with Lama Rod Owens with Dan Harris and others excellent. As well Ruth King’s Book ‘Mindful of Race’ - I find connecting with people who have really suffered for decades at an even deeper more existential and life and death level to be helpful and inspiring (as the experience of suffering from discrimination is ongoing - and one gets used to it as one might get used to a sore leg).
Actually, another person I have found amazingly helpful for building the necessary inner resources to work is Rick Hanson.
As someone who came from a very privileged background before, this has all been an enormous shock to my system - and has taken over a decade to start to have the skills to be more skilful with it. I still find emotions can suddenly get triggered, and become overwhelming though slowly become more skilful.
However, the silver lining is that I understand vicerally now, in a way I never would have (although I was sympathetic before) the pain of systematic marginalization and discrimination. This has greatly enhanced my wisdom and compassion towards those I would have previously overlooked. The ongoing pain is an ongoing reminder. When starting something myself, I will really aim to create an environment which is nourishing for everyone including our indigenous and marginalized populations (am thinking to also incorporate indigenous carving to represent local deities, and use Te Reo on our website - with the blessing of our local Maori Elders). Also to be aware of and inclusive of those of different gender and sexual orientations… So, Thanks Buddhism for the learning experience!
But it’s tough, continually and ongoingly, and really feeling our feelings and seeing what we see, is so important and so difficult. So I appreciate this forum. Where it’s possible to express these things without being pushed aside or dismissed.
Dear Ayya Adhimutti,
Thank you for speaking up and sharing your experience. I deeply appreciate your contributions to the thread. 
I’m glad to hear that you’ve found a place in Myanmar.
Same here. I’ve also listened to many talks and they have helped me enormously to work through the pain of discrimination. They are such strong and inspiring people.
Sadhu.
There’s still way to go but at least awareness of the problem is slowly growing. It can seem like baby steps when there is a whole mountain of discrimination ahead, and progress can seem frustratingly slow. But there’s really no choice but to keep going.
Dear Ayya Vimalanyaani,
It’s really good to meet you here . And sadhu once more for bringing up the topic and articulating the inner realities relating to it in such a clear way.
One more thought that is arising I thought good to add to this discussion. Being excluded and facing discrimination actually activates the same networks in the brain as physical pain. We are such profoundly social animals.
As the practice matures we can become more skilful in dealing with physical pain (in fact some of my most inspiring mentors work with huge amounts of ongoing chronic pain) but it is hard work and wears on the system. The amount of equanimity we can bring depends on how much we have matured in the practice (which depends on having conditions and teachings) and also sometimes on how much sleep we had, and our environment. And pain is still pain.
When I visited the awe- inspiring and deeply accomplished Ven Sayalay Dipankara, in talking with her, even she finds the realities of discrimination difficult. Although she is a master in working with her internal world and can be very skilful.
Also developing skills takes time, access to appropriate teachings, and being in an environment that isn’t continually activating.
So, it’s not that it’s impossible to work with - but it’s hard. And we don’t come in with these skills. We come in full of faith, and idealism (at least I did). So, the first encounters with the realities can sink deep.
And then often as monastic women we are in crowded and noisy conditions, surrounded by people who have stories that make one want to cry (scratch the surface and there can be so much suffering amongst monastic women). So, it can be hard in these conditions to develop the equanimity and mindfulness necessary. What’s more there are not many models within our monastic world who speak clearly about working with discrimination and injustice (since these realities are largely denied) or who are able to teach us skills for working with what can feel like ‘the whole catastrophe’
For many years, I felt I was just staying afloat, surviving but not thriving. I think this is the same for many. How much deeper learning goes on in these situations I’m not sure.
In Asia, anyway, often the monastic women just think it’s their karma. There is an acceptance and peace in this - and other negative and subtle ways disempowerment effects people. Also the acceptance doesn’t lend itself to clear communication, questioning and change (although to acknowledge our sisters in Thailand, Sri Lanka and India who are leading the way forward - I just don’t see much of this where I am)
Although now, I have ‘more than good enough’ conditions. And enormous gratitude to the Pa Auk Sayadaw and my female monastic companions for this.
If enough of us get through, develop necessary skills and inspiring practice we can build a canopy for our younger sisters. Also, the whole situation is unlikely to change, but we can team up with supportive Bhikkhu brothers and create an alternative scene, liberating, inspiringly, nourishing for all and grounded profoundly in the Dhamma.
Yes, very sad to think of the number who could have been or want to but don’t see a way. And thank YOU and all the bhikkunis for forging the path again. Your determination and commitment is “next level” and directly inspires others.
In not nearly the same level or import, my profession is highly male dominated, like 1:4. This alone leads to discrimination and unfortunate gender power dynamics. Add the fact leadership is 100% male… Yeah.
Directly connecting with others experiencing the same oppression and having a place to safely vent, cry, strategize, and care for each other has been many of our saving graces so we don’t become completely discouraged and quit. Being able to write posts like this and see the dialog that can ensue is part of that healing.
I’m so inspired to see the female Theravada continue to grow despite the obstacles. Thank you for your dedication to your practice. Sadhu