The Devas and Brahmas in this universe

Where do you think that the devas and brahmas live in this universe we can see, with the earth, the moon, the planets, stars and galaxies? First, I wanted to put this question in Q & A, but I guess it’s not possible to get an straight answer from the EBT, so this question is more a matter of personal belief, maybe supported by Indian non early buddhist texts like the vedas. I imagine that there are devas on this earth and our sky, on an “astral plane” I guess, but also that there are higher devas closer to the center of our galaxy, and a Brahma in the Galactic Center. What do you say about that?

Many live here on Earth.

Also good to be mindful of the abilities of those with some attainment (mental bodies etc). This means one can be both here and there.

:smiley:

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Regarding devas and Brahmas in this universe according to early Buddhism, the following articles on Samyuttas/Samyuktas by Choong Mun-keat may be relevant:

“A Comparison of the Pāli and Chinese Versions of the Brahma Saṃyutta, a Collection of Early Buddhist Discourses on Brahmās, the Exalted Gods”, Buddhist Studies Review (Journal of the UK Association for Buddhist Studies), vol. 31.2, pp. 179-194 (2014).

"A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Devata Samyutta and Devaputta Samyutta, collections of early Buddhist discourses on devatas “gods” and devaputras “sons of gods” ", Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, vol.1, October 2011, pp. 60-88.


See also other notions of devas in early Buddhism:

“A comparison of the Pāli and Chinese versions of Nāga Saṃyutta, Supaṇṇa Saṃyutta, and Valāhaka Saṃyutta, early Buddhist discourse collections on mythical dragons, birds, and cloud devas”, Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 2020 (18), pp. 42-65.

"A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Sakka Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on ‘Sakra, ruler of the gods’ ", in Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. 22, issue 3-4, October 2012 (Cambridge University Press), pp. 561–574.

“A comparison of the Pali and Chinese versions of the Mara Samyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on Mara, the Evil One”, The Indian International Journal of Buddhist Studies, vol.10, 2009, pp. 35-53.

Check the above-mentioned articles in https://www.academia.edu/

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Thank you :pray:t2: What is your thoughts about this?

In my view, the findings present early Buddhist adaptation of general Indian religious beliefs about divine beings (deva as a general term for divine beings). For a proper understanding of divine beings in early Buddhism, the personal and mythical aspect of divine beings should not be entirely ignored, and the impersonal and symbolic aspect of divine beings should not be over-emphasised.

I think to adapt local folk religious myths at that time may help to promote and safeguard Buddhism.

This may be the reason why Sagātha Vagga (i.e. geya-aṅga collection) is compiled at the beginning of SN (but at the end of SA).

Gods and angels are as close as I let them be. That’s my living experience.

In my very personal opinion (based on a native understanding being born an Indian brahmin :laughing: :wink:), the relationship of the human being to a Deva and a Brahma is similar to that between my individual cells, my organs and my entire body. They are layered one upon the other at consecutively higher time/space frames.

A nation state for example behaves in a particular way in relation to other nation states, even though it is made up of a large number of autonomous individuals. At a time frame spanning centuries, we can in some ways speak of a national character and even discern the nation state’s intentions and actions… this is kamma (attributable to the group) - the hallmark of a sentient being.

In Buddhism we seek Enlightenment. However, it is possible to become a qualitative incarnation of Brahma or Shakra by following a certain Path. It is very important to understand that not all Devas are Enlightened however, and often becoming a Deva is more difficult than becoming an Arhat. However, becoming both is well worth the while. Namaste.

Although it’s hard to conceptualize other dimensions higher than our third and fourth, we can at least imagine that there is a field of existence which, for example, embodies the quality of metta.

We, as humans, are capable of emanating metta. It’s also possible and conceivable that metta exists as a field of reality beyond what the senses provide.

In that field, if we were able to dive deeply enough, we might find the devas. And the same would be true for Karuna, Mudita, and Upekkha.

That’s one way of looking at it.

A different way is imagining:

It’s a bit like opening a portal. The separation between our world and the devaloka is beyond comprehension. But the existence of an opening between the two is quite real (and I believe the Gods, Mara, and gifted humans are capable of opening it).

Buddha expanded these qualities to include all beings, and that means devas and gods. So, why would this be otherwise for us?

Simply love them and they respond accordingly?

This discussion is above my pay grade, and I have definitely never seen a Deva (at least not knowingly :slight_smile: ) …

However, one of the things I liked about the Buddhist “version” of gods/angels is that they couldn’t care less about us. Many other belief systems are that these “higher beings” are completely obsessed with us, oversee our activities, are just dying to get involved with our affairs. That never made sense to me. When I read about the Buddhist perspective, that Devas have basically no interest in us, but yes very rarely may or may not tweak something here or there in exceptional cases, that just rings true to me.

Look forward to finding our for myself one day. :slight_smile:

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But where are you now? And how do you know it?

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However, for a proper understanding of divine beings in early Buddhism (based on SN/SA texts), one may also consider: the personal and mythical aspect of divine beings should not be over-emphasised, and the impersonal and symbolic aspect of divine beings should not be entirely ignored.