"The formless attainments are not included in the earliest teachings..."

@knotty36 here is the longer bit; which I include in this thread because I think it bears on the question about the formless attainments, for similar reasons to it bearing on mindfullness:

The Pali phrase

diṭṭhadhammikañca vajjaṃ samparāyikañca vajjaṃ
(The fault apparent in the present life, and the fault to do with lives to come.)

Occurs once in the entire Sutta/Vinaya Pitakas. (at AN2.1)

Whereas the phrase

paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ
(the first jhana)

Occurs 268 times. ( for e.g at DN2)

It can reasonably said from this fact that for the Buddhists of the Pali Canon the first jhana was a more important concept than the faults apparent in this life and the next.

How about we compare something else to the first jhana? What about the four foundations of mindfulness?

paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ V 46 D 24 M 52 S 24 A 61 T 268
cattāro satipaṭṭhānā V 3 D 10 M 11 S 48 A 18 T 92

So in the entire Sutta/VInaya Pitaka first jhana is mentioned almost 3 times as often as the four foundations of mindfulness.

Lets try one more thing and remove the Samyutta from the equation.

Now we have

paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ V 46 D 24 M 52 A 61 T 244
cattāro satipaṭṭhānā V 3 D 10 M 11 A 18 T 44

So if we leave out the Samyutta, first jhana is mentioned more than 5 times more often than the four foundations of mindfulness.

The Samyutta is the only collection to mention cattāro satipaṭṭhānā more than paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ, actually doing so twice as often, in contrast to the other four collections where first jhana is always mentioned at least twice as often as the four foundations.

This strange clustering of the four foundations of mindfulness in the Samyutta however is even more striking than it seems, because if we remove the occurrences in the standard formula listing dhamma subjects known as the 37 factors of awakening, that is the phrase “cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo” then the Vinaya has no mention of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā at all. This is somewhat troubling, recall that the Vinaya mentions the first jhana 48 times.

3 of the 10 mentions of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā in D are also the 37 factors formula as are 2 of the 11 in M and 1 of the 18 in A.

Of the 48 mentions of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā in S none of them occur in the 37 factors formula.

Controlling for the 37 factors formula we have:

paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ V 46 D 24 M 52 A 61 T 244
cattāro satipaṭṭhānā V 0 D 7 M 9 A 17 T 33

paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ S 24
cattāro satipaṭṭhānā S 48

So if we disregard the list of 37 factors S mentions the four foundations of mindfulness twice as much as the first jhana, while D, M, S and V mention the first jhana more than 7 times as often as the four foundations.

I have also spent some time lookin at “kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno” (observing an aspect of the body) which we will call the aspect formula, which reveals no occurrences in V,

kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno V 0 D 9 M 7 S 46 A 6

Once again we see S mentioning the aspect formula more than twice as often as the rest of the Sutta/Vinaya combined.

In conclusion there is a noticeable divergence in the ratio of mentions of the first jhana and the four foundations between the Samyutta and the rest of the Vinaya and Sutta Pitaka.

Metta.

A further search for the phrase “kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno” (observing an aspect of the body) which we will call the aspect formula, reveals no occurrences in V

kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno V 0 D 9 M 7 S 46 A 6

let us see about D.

D 16 is the first occurrence of either “cattāro satipaṭṭhānā” or “kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno” however we will leave it aside as it is widely agreed that the Mahāparinibbānasutta was one of the last pieces of literature in the canon to be “closed” and has many late additions.

At D 18 we have an interesting example of a whole doctrinal formula for the cattāro satipaṭṭhānā:

“What do the good gods of the Thirty-Three think about how much the Buddha has clearly described the four kinds of mindfulness meditation for achieving what is skillful? “Taṁ kiṁ maññanti, bhonto devā tāvatiṁsā, yāva supaññattā cime tena bhagavatā jānatā passatā arahatā sammāsambuddhena cattāro satipaṭṭhānā paññattā kusalassādhigamāya. What four? Katame cattāro?
It’s when a mendicant meditates by observing an aspect of the body internally—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. Idha, bho, bhikkhu ajjhattaṁ kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. As they meditate in this way, they become rightly immersed in that, and rightly serene. Ajjhattaṁ kāye kāyānupassī viharanto tattha sammā samādhiyati, sammā vippasīdati. Then they give rise to knowledge and vision of other people’s bodies externally. So tattha sammā samāhito sammā vippasanno bahiddhā parakāye ñāṇadassanaṁ abhinibbatteti.
They meditate observing an aspect of feelings internally … Ajjhattaṁ vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati …pe… Then they give rise to knowledge and vision of other people’s feelings externally. bahiddhā paravedanāsu ñāṇadassanaṁ abhinibbatteti.
They meditate observing an aspect of the mind internally … Ajjhattaṁ citte cittānupassī viharati …pe… Then they give rise to knowledge and vision of other people’s minds externally. bahiddhā paracitte ñāṇadassanaṁ abhinibbatteti.
They meditate observing an aspect of principles internally—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. Ajjhattaṁ dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṁ. As they meditate in this way, they become rightly immersed in that, and rightly serene. Ajjhattaṁ dhammesu dhammānupassī viharanto tattha sammā samādhiyati, sammā vippasīdati. Then they give rise to knowledge and vision of other people’s principles externally. So tattha sammā samāhito sammā vippasanno bahiddhā paradhammesu ñāṇadassanaṁ abhinibbatteti.
These are the four kinds of mindfulness meditation that the Buddha has clearly described for achieving what is skillful.” Ime kho, bho, tena bhagavatā jānatā passatā arahatā sammāsambuddhena cattāro satipaṭṭhānā paññattā kusala­s­sādhi­ga­māyā­”­ti­.
That is the topic on which Brahmā Sanaṅkumāra spoke. Imamatthaṁ, bhante, brahmā sanaṅkumāro bhāsittha.

“kāyānupassī viharanto tattha sammā samādhiyati” (meditating this way they become rightly immersed) occurs nowhere else in the canon. Nor does “bahiddhā paracitte ñāṇadassanaṃ abhinibbatteti”. This appears to be the standard aspect formula with late additions that are nowhere else attested.

D 22 is the same sutta as M 10, let us for the moment assume that the sutta originated in M and was imported to D, this picture is perhaps strengthened by the fact that the middle potion of D is mostly concerned with the Buddhas passing, the rebirth of followers and the discussions of the gods rather than meditative techniques or monastic praxis.

D 26 contains the aspect formula at the beginning and the end, the occurrence at the beginning seems to quote from D 16 using the phrase ‘attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā” which occurs only at D 16 and those parts of S 47 relating to the deaths of the Buddha, Sariputta and Mogollanna. The occurrence at the end being alongside the psychic powers, brahma viharas and jhanas. The bulk of the sutta however is devoted to the story of the wheel turning monarch and what constitutes good moral conduct having little to do with monastic practice. It appears at least possible that the opening and closing passages relating to monastic practice are a later addition.

D 28 is the 37 factors list

D 29 has the 37 factors list and the aspect formula, the aspect formula occurs at the very end of the discourse. It occurs after a discussion of the undeclared pints and views about past and future, it begins with:

I have taught and pointed out the four kinds of mindfulness meditation for giving up and going beyond all these views of the past and the future. Imesañca, cunda, pubbantasahagatānaṁ diṭṭhinissayānaṁ imesañca aparantasahagatānaṁ diṭṭhinissayānaṁ pahānāya samatikkamāya evaṁ mayā cattāro satipaṭṭhānā desitā paññattā. What four?

The phrase diṭṭhinissayānaṃ imesañca aparantasahagatānaṃ occurs nowhere else in the canon.

D 33 gives the aspect formula as part of a list of lists of formulas.

D 34 has the aspect formula and also

Furthermore, a mendicant with defilements ended has well developed the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. … Puna caparaṁ, āvuso, khīṇāsavassa bhikkhuno cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvitā honti subhāvitā. Yaṁpāvuso …pe… ‘khīṇā me āsavā’ti.
Which is repeated for each of the 37 factor groups.

In conclusion, D mentions the four foundations of mindfulness rarely, and most often in places where it could easily be a later addition.

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So my argument is that the four foundations of mindfulness rise to prominence at the time SN was being compiled, that SN appears more “organised” than DN and therefore could be later, and that the sekha patipada is probably an earlier description of the path than those that include the four foundations.

I would note that the same argument does NOT apply with the same force in the arupa case, the “idea” of the arupa’s is evident even in DN1, but it is given in a much more cosmological context than the jhanas, and my thought is that this “cosmological tradition” developed in early buddhism to the point where it integrated with the “jhana tradition” but that the “jhana tradition” precedes it as a praxis and is more “anti-metaphysical” than the arupa picture.

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Among Bible scholars a popular saying has it that, “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text”. With that in mind, you’ll need to do a little more than just counting occurrences.

Now virtually all of the Vinaya’s mentions of the first jhāna are in the context of the fourth pārājika and eighth pācittiya rules for bhikkhus, along with their corresponding rules for bhikkhunīs. The former prohibits false declarations of any kind of uttarimanussadhamma; the latter prohibits truthful declarations of an uttarimanussadhamma when talking to unordained people.

That being so, your data is readily accounted for by the simple fact that the first jhāna is an uttarimanussadhamma, while the four satipaṭṭhānas are not.

I am not sure that is true. Firstly my data extends across all 4 Nikayas and the Vinaya, second, your point actually reinforces mine, in that 4 Jhana where considered important enough in V to warrant rules where 4 Mindfulness was not.

Finally I don’t know what a “proof text” is so I can’t “bear in mind” whatever you have in mind with your saying.

As for counting occurrences, it’s not the only argument I have, it’s just that it is an enormously striking one, and one that is left totally unexplained, in my opinion, by the conservative monastic explanation that tends to revolve around “audiences” of the various Nikayas for different “specialties” within the monastic and lay communities, an argument I find utterly unconvincing and bordering on incoherent - a fact that is readily accounted for by the ulterior motive of monastic scholars wanting to give as much as possible of the canon the same “weight”.

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Yes, I’m aware of that, but my comment was only concerned with your uncritical and context-indifferent reading of the Vinaya Pitaka.

I would say that the non-inclusion of the satipatthānas is more plausibly attributable to the fact that they are practices, not attainments.

But taking your approach, should we also say that sīla, the four sammappadhānas, four iddhipādas, five faculties, seven bojjhangas and seven factors of the eightfold path (excluding sammā-samādhi) are likewise to be reckoned as of lesser importance? For these too are not uttarimanussadhammā.

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lol.

this list you give is basically the Bodhipakkhiyādhammā which is actually a perfect example of what I am talking about, to quote from one of my earlier posts:

The above list of cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo. however is never called bodhipakkhiyā dhammā in the 4N, in fact the phrase bodhipakkhiyā dhammā occurs only in SN and there is only used to refer to the five faculties, as in ;

And what are the qualities that lead to awakening?

Katame ca, bhikkhave, bodhipakkhiyā dhammā?

The faculties of faith,

Saddhindriyaṁ, bhikkhave, bodhipakkhiyo dhammo, taṁ bodhāya saṁvattati;

energy,

vīriyindriyaṁ bodhipakkhiyo dhammo, taṁ bodhāya saṁvattati;

mindfulness,

satindriyaṁ bodhipakkhiyo dhammo, taṁ bodhāya saṁvattati;

immersion,

samādhindriyaṁ bodhipakkhiyo dhammo, taṁ bodhāya saṁvattati;

and wisdom are qualities that lead to awakening, in that they lead to becoming awakened.

paññindriyaṁ bodhipakkhiyo dhammo, taṁ bodhāya saṁvattati.

SN48.51

Not only is the list not called by that name, it actually only occurs twice in DN, at DN16 and DN28, twice in MN, at MN103 and MN104, and once in AN, at AN8.19

Even stranger, IMO, is that SN never actually gives the standard list, that is the sentence; cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo. doesn’t occur in SN! Of course, the whole of the Mahavaggasamyutta is precisely a collection based around these very groupings, with:

SN47 on cattāro satipaṭṭhānā

SN49 on cattāro sammappadhānā

SN51 on cattāro iddhipādā

SN48 on pañcindriyāni

SN50 on pañca balāni

SN46 on satta bojjhaṅgā

SN45 on ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo

plus the following:

SN52 Anuruddha

SN53 Jhana

SN54 anapansati

SN55 sotopana

SN56 the truths

So; the list of subjects that make up the mahavaggasamyutta is clearly, at least in its first 7 samyuttas what later tradition called bodhipakkhiyā dhammā however that name never appears in the other Nikayas and when it appears in SN it refers to the pañcindriyāni.

What are we to make of this?

Well, stop me if you’ve heard this one before, but one explanation would be that SN doesn’t mention the list because where it is mentioned in the other 4N (twice in DN, twice in MN and once in AN) it is a late addition referring to the SN collection itself.

This is made more plausible by the fact that of the suttas that do give the list, DN16 is widely regarded to have been open late, DN28 appears to be a composite, spoken by Sariputta, listing many different teachings from many other places in the canon, and both of MN103 and 104 give the list as a shorthand for the teachings of the buddha when dealing with dispute about what is an isn’t the teaching and avoiding schism.

AN8.19 gives;

The ocean is full of many kinds of treasures, such as pearls, gems, beryl, conch, quartz, coral, silver, gold, rubies, and emeralds.

Seyyathāpi, pahārāda, mahāsamuddo bahuratano anekaratano; tatrimāni ratanāni, seyyathidaṁ—muttā maṇi veḷuriyo saṅkho silā pavāḷaṁ rajataṁ jātarūpaṁ lohitako masāragallaṁ;

In the same way, this teaching and training is full of many kinds of treasures, such as the four kinds of mindfulness meditation, the four right efforts, the four bases of psychic power, the five faculties, the five powers, the seven awakening factors, and the noble eightfold path.

evamevaṁ kho, pahārāda, ayaṁ dhammavinayo bahuratano anekaratano. Tatrimāni ratanāni, seyyathidaṁ—cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo.

Yampi, pahārāda, ayaṁ dhammavinayo bahuratano anekaratano; tatrimāni ratanāni, seyyathidaṁ—cattāro satipaṭṭhānā, cattāro sammappadhānā, cattāro iddhipādā, pañcindriyāni, pañca balāni, satta bojjhaṅgā, ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo;

which is lovely but doesn’t really sway things one way or the other.

So to summarise, the phrase bodhipakkhiyā dhammā only appears in SN and always means the five faculties, the list that we know today as bodhipakkhiyā dhammā, the “37 aides to awakening” does not appear as a seperate list in SN, and only appears in the other 3 principle Nikayas a handful of times.

My explanation is that those occurrences are late additions and refer to the contents list of the mahavaggasamyutta of SN, which in turn is a later anthologizing of the teachings organised thematically in a way that is intermediate between the less thematically arranged but earlier material that forms the basis of DN and MN and the later and more rigorously organised material that forms the basis of the Abhidhamma.

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I should also say that the five aggregates is another of SN’s innovations that I find little evidence for in the other Nikayas except where it appears to be late. I have “uncritical and context indifferent” or otherwise arguments for this position too if anyone is interested, but I think i will try to start a new thread about it all and summarize my arguments there as we are drifting quite a ways from the arupas.

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Do you suggest that the 4 jhanas of DN are the earlier teachings of the Buddha/early Buddhism, whereas the 4 mindfulness, … the 8 fold path, … the 4 noble truths of SN are not, or simply not the teachings of the Buddha?

Hi Joseph,

You have written a lot of words in defence of your thesis, but I’m mystified as to why.
:face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Just for the record, the posts to which you’re replying were not intended as a critique of the thesis itself, but only of one strand of the argumentation that you advance in support of it, namely, the wrong-headed (not to mention uncritical and context-indifferent :smile:) inferences that you draw from the Vinaya Pitaka.

Thank you for this very in-depth reply to my question. There is quite a lot here to respond to. And, as these specific issues (i.e., the 4sp/37bp vs. the 4js) are not anything I’ve devoted much thought to, it’d take me a little while to respond to anything properly. I think there’s definitely something to what you’ve found in this data, and I’d like to hear more. Looking back, though, I see my original question was unclear in its emphasis: I was actually more interested in the progression from the Atthaka and Parayana to the rest. But, again, this is all valuable.

I’m interested in hearing about what you’ve found pertaining to the 5 khandhas. But, as you noted, I think it’ll have to be a new thread. Title it something inclusive of all of this. (Also, I didn’t quite catch the connection of all of this with the formlessnesses. I saw you mentioned something, but it was kind of in passing. Let’s tie that in to the new thread too.) Tag me so I get something in my e-mail after you’ve started it.

And thank you to all for their contributions to this thread. I’m the OP, and this thing has spiraled far beyond what I ever imagined. The formlesses figure into my research, so I’m basically always fishing for new line of thought. Lots of good viewpoints here! Thank you!!!

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Isn’t arupa basically the 5th jhana and beyond? Can we call Nirvana the 9th jhana then? But of course the goal has been achieved in defeating and escaping samsara.

I can’t remember what Sutta I read, but my interpretation is that you need to abandon your body to attain boundlessness. Thus infinite space. Similar as in the 2nd jhana, when you need to abandon your mind to extinguish sadness or mental dukha.

But omnipresence is achieved in the 6th jhana. The 7th jhana is nothingness. Is it because you have to abandon and extinguish your consciousness? Is your soul the only thing that is left in the 7th jhana? And is it the soul that you have to extinguish to achieve the 8th jhana?

Hello Bhante,

Do you recommend the book? Did it clarify any aspects of your Dhamma practice?
It sounds interesting but, you know, limited time, etc. means choosing reading material wisely. :slightly_smiling_face:

I do! It’s (obviously) most helpful in the context of a broader meditation practice, etc. But I found it illuminating :slight_smile:

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Thank you, I’m interested to read it. :pray:

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I am working on a new thread, or rather essay, or both, and will certainly tag you when it is ready.

As for the development of the formlessnesses, I will have to go back and re-read the athaka-vagga and parayanavaggas to see if I missed anything, but my overall impression is that they start as a part of a cosmological or metaphysical sequence and are regarded as such in what I think are the “early” EBT’s for eg DN1 and MN1, my impression of the jhanas is that they are never* thought of “cosmologically” or metaphysically in the early material but are very much embodied, visceral and part of a “praxis” that is best summed up by the sekha patipada.

as buddhism evolved away from its gritty grounded realist roots towards a more metaphysically sophisticated universalist religion I think that the metaphysical cosmology of the formlessnesses was integrated into the praxis side of buddhism, as to at when exactly, well now I am just straight up speculating but my impression is that:

  1. atthaka and parayana: implicit DO
  2. DN and MN: explicit DO and Jhana
  3. SN: DO and Jhana giving way to four foundations and the aggregates

somewhere between 2 and 3 is probably when it happens?
anyway, off to work on my “the evolution of pre-sectarian buddhism” post :slight_smile:

*this is not quite right, as in the middle part of DN especially and also across many other suttas the jhanas ARE presented cosmologically, but again, for reasons I probably haven’t made clear enough, I think that this is a later development than the “praxis” description of jhana in the sekha. (in fact, and again i’m just speculating, not making an argument, I suspect that the “cosmologic-afication” of jhana is probably related to the “praxification” or the formlessnesses.

Metta.

this is certainly the position that develops in the commentarial literature, but in the 4 Nikayas of the EBT’s there is no such thing as a “5th jhana” and the 4 jhanas are very often described without any mention of the arupas as leading to enlightenment, and only sometimes do we see the arupas appended to the jhanas in descriptions of the path.

Hence the question are they “included” in the earliest teachings, to which my answer is yes, but not in the way they come to be seen in the commentarial literature.

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You have no idea! @Dhammanando I have a LOT of written material that I have not yet troubled this forum with :slight_smile:

As for why, it’s mostly because of vanity I guess, in that I think that there is a very strong argument to be made here, and its one that I haven’t seen in the academic literature before (I was a Buddhist Studies student who did not go on to do any post-graduate work).

So if I get to be “one of the first” to point out what I see as the “fairly obvious once you know its there” argument that SN opens (perhaps much) later than DN or MN and is a kind of “stepping stone” to the Abhidhamma, then I will be content :stuck_out_tongue:

As for my wrongheadedness, I merely point out that one topic is mentioned hundreds upon hundreds of times across the EBTS’s while several other topics, if one puts aside SN, are barely ever mentioned at all, and that this IS significant.

The counter-argument that I have gotten most often is basically

“the number of times a concept is mentioned is no reflection of it’s importance”

I think this counter-argument is weak, and obviously weak.

to quote myself:

The Pali phrase

diṭṭhadhammikañca vajjaṃ samparāyikañca vajjaṃ

(The fault apparent in the present life, and the fault to do with lives to come.)

Occurs once in the entire Sutta/Vinaya Pitakas. (at AN2.1)

Whereas the phrase

paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ

(the first jhana)

Occurs 268 times. ( for e.g at DN2)

It can reasonably said from this fact that for the Buddhists of the Pali Canon the first jhana was a more important concept than the faults apparent in this life and the next.

on the view of my critics it may well be that the concept of the fault to do with the lives to come is a much more important idea than that of the first jhana, and and the 268 to 1 ratio is “a meaningless number”.

to each their own I guess.

May I ask a minor, technical question? How are you counting occurrences? Searching on SuttaCentral? Is there some specific tool for doing this kind of thing?

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is my go to.

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And yet your assertion that the SN is later than the DN or MN goes against the scholarly work so far, which includes study of Sarvastivada, Yogacara and Madhyamika texts that describe the SN as the first collection of sutta, source of the four agamas, as exhibiting the archaic “anga” (limbic) organization (that goes right back to the rgveda), and so forth.

The SN’s remarkable consistency in both content and organization across the various canons available to us has also been noted by several scholars, including @sujato.

There’s also been work done into what collections in the Pali canon likely contain the earliest matikas. So, I think you have your work cut out for you.

But. Very Interesting. Thank you.