The Full Dependent Origination

[jimisommer]

SN12.23 has always been one of my favorite suttas. I love how it goes from ignorance all the way to awakening and release. I always found it interesting that dependent origination was something the Buddha came to realize after his awakening, in that first week. I wonder if this was something he came to understand even later, completing the entire concept. I like this though because it shows how even the path to unconditioning is conditioned, and each step has proximate causes. Also, I like how each step beyond suffering just gets better and better! The further you go, the less suffering you experience. I’m surprised this teaching isn’t used more often when teaching dependent origination, I feel like this is the full teaching and the one most people talk about is only half of it. Either way though, this teaching seems pretty profound and will always be one of my favorites. Watch now, someone will come and correct me and I’ll find out this isn’t even a reliable sutta ;p

[Gabriel_L]

SN12.23 is doubtlessly a very important and meaningful sutta. I can’t see how one could dismiss or doubt its relevance.

Suttas like AN10.2 / AN11.2, AN10.61, AN10.62 do support the idea of transcendental dependent origination it is calling us to bring about or make room for in our lives and hearts.

Not sure if you have already come across but it may be interesting to others to learn that Bhikkhu Bodhi has authored a beautiful exposition of SN12.23:

upanisa_sutta.pdf (503.3 KB)

Also, @Jayarava has put together some interesting pictures on the topic of how EBTs indicate both the mundane and transcendental dependent originations can be seen from different perspectives:

Source: Jayarava - Dependent Arising

[jimisommer]

That is so cool! I found this one, but that is sick.

[Gabriel_L]

@jimisommer

I’m surprised this teaching isn’t used more often when teaching dependent origination, I feel like this is the full teaching and the one most people talk about is only half of it.

Indeed!

Maybe you are already aware but Ajahn Brahmali usually refers to this when he is guiding retreats. This is a topic started by @sabbamitta describing her experience of attending live one:

A Retreat With Ajahn Brahmali

When I first heard that Ajahn Brahmali is conducting sutta retreats I was not particularly interested in the first place. I had just started to discover how meditation is working, and that it actually can work even for me, so that the thought to go for a retreat and do anything else than meditating did not occur to me. And this although I had been attracted by the suttas for quite some time already, and also by Ajahn Brahmali’s way of teaching. Then it was when attending my first retreat with A…

[sabbamitta]

Find here also the audio files of Ajahn Brahmali’s retreat in Germany in June 2017:
https://www.samita.eu/en/media/audio-cds/#brahmali2017

[vimalanyani]

Isn’t there also Ajahn Brahmali’s booklet on exactly this topic, that you translated into German a while ago? Is the English version available online?

[Mat]

@jimisommer

I always found it interesting that dependent origination was something the Buddha came to realize after his awakening, in that first week.

Dependent origination is realized at stream entry.

"These are the four factors of stream-entry with which he is endowed.
.
"And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment?
.
"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices: When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn’t, that isn’t. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. AN10.92

I suspect the Buddha understood this earlier, and might have contemplated it after attaining Buddhahood.

with metta

[Gabriel_L]

@vimalanyani

Isn’t there also Ajahn Brahmali’s booklet on exactly this topic, that you translated into German a while ago? Is the English version available online?

Yep. There are two:
Dependent Origination: do.pdf (181.4 KB)

&
Dependent Liberation: dl.pdf (171.8 KB)

Source: https://www.samita.eu/en/media/books/

[sabbamitta]

Yes, the English version is available online, although we have run out of the printed booklets:
https://www.samita.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/do.pdf
https://www.samita.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/dl.pdf
Oh, Gabriel, only now I saw that you already shared the links here

Thank you!

[Jayarava]

There is also Ayya Khema’s book (curiously titled) When the Iron Eagle Flies.

One does need to be aware however that the Upanisā Sutta is not representative and in relation to the other Spiral Path texts looks fragmentary. It is missing important components that can be seen in the 40 or so other Pāḷi suttas (which I surveyed in 2013), or in the Chinese versions in the Madhyama Āgama (they’re in the first volume of translations from BDK, but I’ve also had a go at translating them). The Chinese versions are more standardised.

Also the idea that the two modes of Paṭiccasamuppāda fit together end-to-end as described is not very credible. When I do the nidāna reflection I begin with the Upanisā Sutta version (the upanisās) from the beginning up to ñānadassana. Then I go through the standard nidānas forwards and backwards (since this is the content of knowledge and vision) and then complete the sequence of upanisās.

Best Wishes
Jayarava