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dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ --AN9.35
It actually seems that we have missed dhammehi (Dhamma+ EhI!) in all this worry about two v-words.
I.e., what should we be thinking and placing the mind on and contemplating and connecting to?
The Dhamma. Not the jhana.
I share with many of you the understanding that we have our individual journeys. But, as I have come to understand the mind, we totally underestimate the importance of language. We are born into language, what ‘we’ are is based on language, our experience and emotions use language as a ladder to climb into our consciousness, the unconscious is structured like a language.
An important part of the journey is the consensual ‘brainwash’ by the Buddha-Dhamma. A Dhamma outside of language is a fiction - how can you practice if you don’t rely on your unconscious having a grasp of the journey you’re hoping it to take?
When I build my own language around the experiences I acquire, the new word-meanings still center around fundamental words and concepts, like the crystal around the speck of dust in a snow-flake. No matter if you personally struggle for words or not, your mind and unconsciousness will put it in concepts, words and images for you. And it makes sense to me that some people in the discourse struggle for these words. It’s not a job for everyone, but I think it’s important in order for the Dhamma to stay relevant.
The ‘dhammehi’ there is qualified by ‘akusalehi’. It’s what you are secluded from not what you’re focusing on.
That is certainly the best way to go about it. Sometimes the search results are too numerous, depending on the query, so people will ask for help to sort through the avalanche of information. Or they may not know which terms to use for their query and start a new topic to get assistance.
Actually, I read the Pali differently:
vivicca is separating oneself from (instr.), aloof from
akusalehi is not good, not right; evil, harmful, not conducing to well-being; evil, acting wrongly.
Therefore vivicca akusalehi is secluded from unskillful qualities
Because of this, I would read dhammehi savitakkaṃ savicāraṃ as a phrase. And that phrase, I believe tells us to focus on the Dhamma as the first jhana. Perhaps one of the Bhante’s might chime in here?
I’d like to draw attention to some partial parallels of MN118, with English translations ranging the span of possible meanings.
When a mendicant is breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ … They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling the physical process.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling the physical process.’ At such a time a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world. Why is that? Because the breath is a certain aspect of the body, I say. Therefore, at such a time a mendicant is meditating by observing an aspect of the body—keen, aware, and mindful, rid of desire and aversion for the world.
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.13/en/sujato
[SN54.13]
(translated by Sujato Bhikkhu)
When breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ When breathing in lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing in lightly.’ When breathing out lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing out lightly.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in experiencing the whole body.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out experiencing the whole body.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe in stilling physical processes.’ They practice like this: ‘I’ll breathe out stilling physical processes.’
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.1/en/sujato
[SN54.1]
(translated by Sujato Bhikkhu)
While breathing in long, he knows as it really is: I am breathing in long, while breathing out long, he knows as it really is: I am breathing out long.
While breathing in short, he knows as it really is: I am breathing in short, while breathing out short, he knows as it really is: I am breathing out short.
While breathing in and experiencing the whole bodily conditions he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and experiencing the whole bodily conditions, while breathing out and experiencing the whole bodily conditions he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and experiencing the whole bodily conditions.
While breathing in and experiencing joy he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and experiencing joy, while breathing out and experiencing joy he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and experiencing joy.
While breathing in and experiencing pleasure he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and experiencing pleasure, while breathing out and experiencing pleasure he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and experiencing pleasure.
While breathing in and making the bodily conditions calm he knows as it really is: I am breathing in and making the bodily conditions calm, while breathing out and making the bodily conditions calm he knows as it really is: I am breathing out and making the bodily conditions calm.
https://suttacentral.net/arv20/en/anandajoti
[ARV20]
(translated by Ānandajoti Bhikkhu)
When breathing in heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing in heavily.’ When breathing out heavily they know: ‘I’m breathing out heavily.’ When breathing in lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing in lightly.’ When breathing out lightly they know: ‘I’m breathing out lightly.’ They practice breathing in experiencing the whole body. They practice breathing out experiencing the whole body. They practice breathing in stilling the body’s motion. They practice breathing out stilling the body’s motion.
https://suttacentral.net/mn62/en/sujato#13–19
[MN62]
(translated by Sujato Bhikkhu)
When he breathes in long, he knows it; and when he breathes out long, he knows that. When he breathes in short, he knows it; and when he breathes out short, he knows that. When breathing in, he trains in having the full experience of the breath; when breathing out, he trains in having the full experience of the breath. When breathing in, he trains in calming the activity of the body; when breathing out, he trains in calming the activity of the body.
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-pj3/en/brahmali#10–13
[PLI-TV-BU-PJ3]
(translated by Brahmali Bhikkhu)
I see the quotes but would you say more about what you want us to see in the quotes?
For example, in MN118, did you want us to notice that kaya is mentioned early but then no longer referenced starting with the Pali segment translated as:
They practice breathing in experiencing rapture. They practice breathing out experiencing rapture.
Vitakka and vicara are not used in MN118. But the above might be an implied reference to the stilling of V&V as defined by SN40.2:
‘As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected.
‘idha bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.
I might be posting in the wrong thread. These passages aren’t describing jhāna. They’re just dealing with how ‘kāya’ and the ‘kāyasaṅkhāra’ in the first tetrad of ānapānasati is translated (and the strange variation of steps in ARV20).
ānapānasati is said to fulfill the satipaṭṭhāna (only the first of which is kāyanupassanā, the other three being vedanānupassana, cittānupassana, and dhammānupassā)
Yea, that’s also up for debate. I tend to think from my readings that the the pīti and sukha mentioned in ānapānasati is probably not referring to jhāna proper, but something more like training-wheels. Pīti and sukha are not exclusive to jhāna, they occur in many other places in the suttas.
MODS: my previous post might be more appropriate here: 一切 & sarva
I believe you have confused samadhi with liberation. They aren’t the same thing. Samadhi leads in the direction of liberation, but isn’t liberation itself. People were practicing samadhi for centuries before the Buddha.
Jhana isn’t a nearly insurmountable goal that takes decades to achieve nor is it something that should be put on such a high pedestal. It typically shouldn’t also be something that only comes at the very end of the practice. That is a sad outlook and perspective.
I don’t think people underestimate the importance of language. I think most people overemphasize the importance of language and rely on it too heavily. The obvious reason is because nearly all people have a near continual internal linguistic dialog going on in their heads and that is how people are taught to interpret and understand the world around them. External and internal language pretty much continuously. Language is vital to the transmission of the dhamma and Buddha Gotama said the ability to give instruction is miraculous and marvelous, but the rigidity of word usage was also highly dissuaded by him also.
If the Pali words are so important then why did Buddha Gotama multiple times tell the monks that they MUST teach the dhamma ONLY in the local languages of the people being taught. And as @Erika_ODonnell succinctly pointed out:
This is also true of the different languages spoken throughout Northeastern India 2,500 years ago. Conveying the meaning of a sentence doesn’t require a rigid 1:1 word exchange ratio. You can have reasonably direct analogs, but it is never exactly the same. And anyways such translation work would be mindless and produce bizzarre results, also again succinctly pointed out by @Erika_ODonnell :
This whole series of discussions is misguided in my opinion.
As this topic thread has gone rather far afield, and with there being a few other topics related to the OP already in existence, I’m closing this thread.