The other way to final Nibbāna according to the suttas

Discussion
1

The idea that final Nibbāna is nothing apart from the cessation of the khandhas
might seem bleak. If it seems bleak, it is only due to the false sense of having
a permanent self, or more precisely, because of the view of personal identity,
sakkāya-diṭṭhi.
The sense that one has a permanent core — a distortion of perception that is unavoidable for all puthujjanas — makes cessation appear like annihilation and the successful practice of the path like a form of suicide. If cessation
seems undesirable, it is only due to this distorted outlook.

This got me thinking, that if this is really the case then there is another path to Nibbāna taught in the suttas. But it is not really a explicit teaching - more implicit:

We have to use the suttas in a different light to come to this conclusion, but the goal is identical.

It goes a little something like this:
Immoral behaviour leads to rebirth in lower realms like hell, as an animal or ghost.
The amount time one has to spend in these lower states are immense.
There is no possibility to practice the Buddha’s dhamma (or any other spiritual teaching for that matter) in these states.
To be a human is a rare thing said the Buddha.
(We humans only make up 0.01% of life on Earth.)
When a universe contracts MOST are heading to the luminous form realms according to the suttas.
Not ALL, but most…
Most of who?
Most of those that have practiced morality, generousity and meditation.

But these other life forms have no way of doing this when a universe (kama loka) finally contracts. So those who went against all the principles of virtue and wisdom also get to enjoy final Nibbāna when their khandhas cease in the destruction of a universe, since they have nothing to cling to in either kama loka or rupa loka.

Unless someone wants to argue that the material residue of these annihilated beings during the destruction of kama loka will eventually somehow reappear as these very beings again when a new kama loka is formed?
As in the craving of these beings staying latent and when the conditions are right they can come back?

The problem with this is of course that in the the suttas, it is always from the top to the bottom.
Never from the bottom to the top.

Apparently the path of virtue and wisdom is still better with less overall pain/sorrow before reaching the goal. Then again the immoral with no wisdom get to enjoy the same type of cessation faster and more frequently than someone on the path - so it looks like there is a split between which path is actually the best.

To each their own. :+1:

2

I don’t agree with this.

One who conceives of cessation in this way not only misapprehends that which ceases, he also misapprehends the cessation.

I don’t know who wrote the text but it appears to assert that the puthujjana conceives correctly of the cessation but is dissatisfied with such prospect because he relishes that which ceases.

This akin to two people debating whether they should extinguish a fire or not.

One person would say ‘Let’s extinguish the fire, i don’t care for it’
To him another says ‘I relish the fire friend, let’s not extinguish it’

The two are talking about the same extinguishment and both understand it correctly.

Whereas when it comes to the cessation of the constructed, the puthujjhana has absolutely no idea about what it is and he can not comprehend it as it actually is.

It is not merely that he relishes that which ceases or grasps it with wrong view. He has no clue about what it is that he is talking about.

It is like if one person was to say ‘let’s extinguish the fire’, and the other would misunderstand it, conceiving of extinguishment as a setting the house on fire or buying a car, something completely unrelated.

2 Likes
3

Ajahn Brahmali wrote the text.

1 Like
4

One of the most great qualities is…being able to know when one must just admit…i do not really know.…just be honest to ourselves and others. Not faking knowledge where there is no real knowledge.

All i see are attemps to seek textual proof for this or that opinion. It is, ofcourse, madness. Yes, also the attempt to seek proof that parinibbana is not a mere cessation. It is all defiled activity and pure madness. It has nothing to do with a sincere Dhamma practice. Sincere Dhamma practicse is not about seeking textual support for ones opinions, but letting go of opinions.

Selling knowledge where there is no knowledge is just bad, right? It is just pretention.
I think that no one here, also no Ajahns, has any real knowledge about the nature of parinibbana. I believe it is all fake news. Oke, opinions enough, but real knowledge…has no one.

The way opinions are sold as Truth is not oke.

1 Like
5

I do understand that it might be madness on my part for trying to prove that this type ”cessation view” is wrong.

I just feel the quoted text is a bit offensive because it very bluntly tells us what the highest attainment is, namely like unconscious deep sleep.

Which is hardly beyond logic, too profound and difficult to be understood through common knowledge since we and billions of other humans already know what that is like…

Something extremely unique that is impossible to explain and that is supermundane has turned into some mundane very common thing that is very uninspiring.
And why some even think it is uninspiring, according to the quote, is due to self-view…

  • Not a single word in pali implying rebirth in some suttas are found, but despite this rebirth is still added here and there in the translations.

  • While important pali words that are actually there are not added in the translations.

  • Essays where questions in the suttas are chopped up in to two different sections with two different answers - because otherwise this would prove the ”cessation view” to be wrong - etc.

This to me, is the ultimate madness! :wink:

So I’m not buying the knowledge that is being sold.

But I totally agree with you and will from now on let it go. :pray:

Loving kindness, compassion, appreciative joy & equanimity, even as long as a finger snap has more worth than trying to show on a forum why a view is inconsistent/illogical in the grand scheme of the Buddha’s teaching.

2 Likes
6

For me this is also important. I see it also very differently.

I feel, we must not underestimate minds obsession with formations. With what moves. Not only externally but also internally that what moves immediately attracts attention. There is a huge obsession with what can be seen arising, ceasing and changing in the meantime.

Due to this obsession, i feel, that aspect in our lifes what is not seen arising, ceasing and changing, is overlooked. And because it is overlooked, one believes that our life is only about formations arising and ceasing. Only about noticable movements or arising formations. And also the Dhamma becomes something that is only about movements, formations. That goes together.

A feeling for non-movement, for what is not seen arising and ceasing and changing tends to weaken when the mind is obsessed with coming and going. With arising intentions, bodily feelings, odours, visuals, smells, plans, reasonings, ideas, thoughts, ego, emotions, drift, tendencies etc.
Not seeing non-movement; emptiness, desireless, the unfabricated, that what comes and goes, becomes our life. That feels like me, mine, my self, reality. Buddha does all he can to remedy this.

This obsession with formations, with movement, hinders us to see the element of non-arising, the element of non change, no cessation, non-movement in our lifes.
Also, because non-movement is much more familiar to us than movement, it tends to stay unseen, ignored and avijja grows on what is ignored, not seen.

I believe, it has nothing to do with sakkaya ditthi, a doctrine of atta, a permanent core, an eternal soul, eternalism.

The issue is, there are people who have feeling for what is not seen arising and ceasing. Meaning, they have a feeling for what at this very moment is already free, undefiled, pure, unburdened,unaffected, not of this world, beyond good and bad.

Is it really factual, true, real that those who do not believe that teachings lead to a mere cessation are ignorant, under controll of wrong views, defilements and those who believe in mere cessation see things really as it is, truth, factual? I would ask moderators to consider this very carefully.
I also want to give in consideration that just like those who believe in a mere cessation, care about the Triple Gem, i also do, and i feel other do too who do not believe the Dhamma leads to a mere cessation.

1 Like
7

why do you think this?

as far as i understand, that’s definitely not what the buddha says.

8

I do think he has a point here.

Far is like near, for concepts of space do not apply. All that appears is a very refined awareness suffusing everything throughout the entire universe. The whole world seems to be filled by this subtle quality of knowing, as though nothing else exists, though things still exist in the world as they always have. …It cannot be expressed in the same way that conventional things in general can be, simply because it is not a conventional phenomenon. It is the sole province of those who have transcended all aspects of conventional reality, and thus realize within themselves that non-conventional nature. - Ajahn Maha Bua

To know the disbanding of consciousness pure and simple is to know the disbanding of everything. It’s like opening up the entire world, or stripping off the entire world and throwing it away.
When you can strip it away, throw it off, and let it go, there’s nothing but emptiness, an emptiness that’s bright and clear, with no sense of the world at all. The words “world” and “five aggregates” are simply conventions to help us see how there’s change.

And as to whether this is something worth aspiring to, I leave it up to you to decide. - Upasika Kee Nanayon

Ajahn Amaro:
The Buddha talks about the mind of the arahant as “consciousness which is unmanifest, signless, infinite, and radiant in all directions.”

9

DN33

”Nine lost opportunities for spiritual practice:
Firstly, a Realized One has arisen in the world. He teaches the Dhamma leading to peace, extinguishment, awakening, as proclaimed by the Holy One. But a person has been reborn in hell. This is the first lost opportunity for spiritual practice. Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world. But a person has been reborn in the animal realm. This is the second lost opportunity for spiritual practice. Furthermore, a Realized One has arisen in the world. But a person has been reborn in the ghost realm. This is the third lost opportunity for spiritual practice.”

The Chapter of Abbreviated Texts on Five Destinations:

https://suttacentral.net/sn56-pancagatipeyyalavagga

DN1:

“Herein, bhikkhus, a certain recluse or brahmin, by means of ardour, endeavour, application, diligence, and right reflection, attains to such a degree of mental concentration that with his mind thus concentrated he recollects his numerous past lives: that is, (he recollects his past lives throughout) one aeon of world-contraction and expansion, throughout two, three, four, five, or ten aeons of world-contraction and expansion.

“There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts (disintegrates). While the world is contracting, beings for the most part are reborn in the Ābhassara Brahma-world. There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.

“But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again. While the world is expanding, an empty palace of Brahmā appears. Then a certain being, due to the exhaustion of his life-span or the exhaustion of his merit, passes away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arises in the empty palace of Brahmā. There he dwells, mind made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And he continues thus for a long, long period of time.

I’m just poiting out that the suttas quoted clearly show how plenty of the beings in the lower realms do become 100% annihilated while Kama Loka disintegrates.

So if Nibbāna = annihilation, then there is also another path of evil found in the suttas with the same result as this ”annihilation theory” about Nibbāna.

Which means countless of billions (trillions?) of beings in the lower realms enter this type of ”annihilation-Nibbāna” every time a Kama Loka disintegrates:
”one aeon of world-contraction and expansion, throughout two, three, four, five, or ten aeons of world-contraction and expansion.”

10

my recollection is that when the lower form realms are destroyed, some beings with sufficient kamma are born in the lowest remaining heaven, as you say.

the remaining beings die, but are not annihilated.

rather, they are shunted off to another world system - another galaxy essentially, where they are reborn according to their kamma.

this is even more traumatic, as the beings who had been their friends and associates for aeons in their previous familiar world system are no longer around them. it’s not a positive experience.

1 Like
11

Any suttas where one can read about how lower beings, during the destruction, are transfered to another world system?

12

@Dhabba i’ll try to find this :slight_smile:

edit: link to book containing this information

@Dhabba i can’t find the suttas but the above linked book contains the information - you might be able to see / find the sutta references from it.

best wishes to you!

1 Like