The ‘world’ in the Kaccānagotta Sutta

Hello, venerable! Thanks for the essay and encouraging reflection on such a famous and powerful discourse.

It seems that the main purpose of this essay is to highlight the importance of rebirth here, rather than just analysing external things in this life such as physics or interconnectedness and so on which tend to de-emphasize the focus on the arising and ceasing of the rebirth process.

I think that is certainly important and deserves emphasizing. But I have some thoughts on the process and phrasing you took to make that point. I will try and go over the points in a way that is clear and thorough, so please accept my apologies in advance if the comment is tedious or lengthy!

First, I’d like to make it clear that I acknowledge the definitions and explanations of loka which define it as the senses and cognizing person. But I think we need to consider the practical implications of these statements to make sense of them.

The lines at SN 12.15 say that someone can gain right view by seeing the arising and ceasing of the world. Let’s take a strict stance and assume that ‘loka’ means “the body and mind, not the experience[s] of body-mind.” If that were the case, someone would have to literally see a body/senses cease from a third-person perspective or something, which I do not think is correct.

As someone else mentioned, in deep sleep the eyes and ears and so forth may not be working. Or if someone were to no longer experience sights-sounds-smells-etc. in some meditative state, that would also not be sufficient to count as the cessation of the senses or apparatus through which one cognizes the world literally. It would just be a temporary cessation of the experiences the arise through them.

This, to me, is too strict. While I don’t think sense experiences temporarily not arising like the above cases are what is meant, I also think that the Buddha cannot have meant that the time of death is when someone understands the cessation of the being/senses/world. Wouldn’t you agree?

I would also add that even there, in order to see the end of a being, we would have to have a new set of senses to witness the event! So we wouldn’t actually be seeing the end of our current senses, just past senses! We cannot see our own eye directly with itself. Right?

Let’s say we define the internal senses slightly differently as you tend to do in your translations, which I find reasonable. Here, ‘cakkhu’ is “vision” or “sense of sight,” etc. So it is a faculty, as in a capability or power, of sensing. But in this case, again, I really don’t see how you can separate “vision” from “the experience of sights.” How can you call something “vision” if there are no visions or sights to sense! How can we say we have the “sense of hearing” if we aren’t hearing anything? Here too, the only way to know that the ‘senses’ cease is if their corresponded sense experiences end. For a basic example, the only way we know we lost our vision is when we don’t see anything! Even if the eye organ is still in tact. That’s the only way to know.

At this point, we may have to narrow down the verb ‘see’ in the “if you see the arising/cessation …” passage. We could infer it to mean “understand” rather than directly experience. So in this reading, it would be something like understanding how the senses are reborn and how they are not reborn. This seems to match fairly well with the focus you give later on, where you say:

So, based off of your arguments presented here, I would conclude that your essay makes an argument for the following view:

  1. One cannot directly experience the arising or ceasing of the senses/being, because we are already reborn and already have them.
  2. The goal is to understand the four noble truths and how craving will produce more senses in a future life.
  3. Therefore, the arising of right view has nothing to do with the cessation of sensory experiences, consciousness, contact, or perception; it has to do with the cessation of craving in relation to our senses, which remain intact, and then inferring or understanding that without craving, the senses would not be produced in a future life.

To understand better, is this your view? If it is, then I think the case made in the essay seems relatively consistent. But if it isn’t your view, then I think some wording and so on needs adjusted.

For some additional comments:
As I mentioned before, I don’t think we can “know” our senses are present without sense experiences and sense consciousness present. How would we know that we have vision if vision is not operating? And if we had no sense experience, how could we even reflect on the senses being present or not?

Empirically speaking, the internal senses depend on external sense experiences. But external sense experiences depend on the internal senses. And then we can add the third factor, sense consciousness, as also applying to this mutually dependent relationship. So we can’t speak of a “fathom-long body with perception and mind” in isolation. We can only speak of, designate, or know it if there are corresponding sense experiences to measure against, and vice versa.

To me, this seems to be part of why “the world” is said to be empty of a self. The Buddha doesn’t just say the internal senses are empty of a self. He also includes sights, sounds, and so on. If “sights” truly existed independently as things in-and-of themselves, that seems like some kind of “self” to me. Just an external one. This is the argument that e.g. Nāgārjuna seems to make to my mind. Believing in the inherent existence of external things is just as much believing in a self and the consequences of that belief (i.e. eternalism or annihilationism). Because if ‘sights’ exist in-and-of themselves, their existence either persists forever (eternalism) or is destroyed (annihilation).

If ‘sights’ are just a phenomenal process that arise in dependent relationship to other dependent processes and are designated based on the sense of sight, eye-consciousness, perception, etc., then we are speaking not of a “thing” or “self”, but of dependent appearance and disappearance.

To clarify, if someone takes their experience of sights as existing in-and-of-themselves, or the senses existing in-and-of-themselves, then the person must by definition be an annihilationist or eternalist. Because the “self” would either be equal to those independently-existing senses, which if they cease, would logically entail annihilation. Or, the self would be assumed to be separate from the independently-existing senses or sense experiences, in which case it may be eternal and beyond them. In either case, the person could be either annihilationist or eternalist, and they might not define themselves as such. Like modern physicalist annihilationists. This is because they would simply be not seeing the dependently arisen nature of contact which is not independent or possessing a self, so they would be automatically assuming a self in some sense.

This is precisely the opposite of speculation about the metaphysics of the outside world. It simply sets aside that question to focus on the experience of beings, at which point we can look and see if there really is any “being” (i.e. a self or existence in-and-of-itself) to the senses, consciousness, or sense experiences. That is, to “the world.”

At this point, I’ll briefly comment on a tangential issue:

I don’t think annihilationism is limited to a single life. I won’t make the case for it based on suttas here. But even based off of plain logic or reasoning, it’s perfectly possible for someone to believe in rebirth and also be an annihilationist. I think it’s possible the bodhisatta was an annihilationist himself under his former meditation teachers. For him, seeing the empty or self-less nature of ‘the world’ via dependent origination may have been a major stepping stone for his path away from a former annihilationist approach. But this is too much to discuss here for the moment.

Back to the world in relation to sense experience:

The Buddha in other discourses also talks about right view in terms of knowing the cessation of contact or the arising/ceasing of contact. Not necessarily in this kind of specific wording, but there are places where knowing the arising/ceasing of contact is said to constitute right view as in MN 9. So I don’t think there’s a problem or contradiction with “loka” meaning or entailing sense contact. It would be consistent with many teachings elsewhere, and it would be more coherent as isolating only the senses doesn’t make much sense nor does it fit all explanations of ‘loka.’ Otherwise, there would be many kinds of ‘right view’ which don’t actually include and encompass one another! And that would be problematic to my mind. :laughing:

I think the main point you want to make (and I could be wrong! Hence my question before), is that “arising” and “ceasing” in SN 12.15 should be taken to be about craving → rebirth. And that the Buddha’s emphasis is that “contact” can only cease if the conditions for its re-arising are removed. In this case, the actual conditions for the re-arising would be craving, because even if the senses in one life end, the Buddha teaches that craving will ‘weave together’ the arising of more contact in a future life. This is a solid case and important for understanding the Buddha’s common focus on rebirth.

To me, the problem is that in making this argument you seem to mix in a polemic against emphasizing sense contact, and instead you focus on some isolated “being” or “senses” which can’t actually be directly and independently known. Thank goodness, because if they could be, they would exist in-and-of themselves, and that would make them an attā!

I think these are two separate arguments that shouldn’t be conflated. To my mind, “lokashould include or focus on sense experience. In the sense of our ‘life’ or ‘world’ is a world of sense experiences. This isn’t saying that’s all there is. Just that this is what our experience entails and what we can know. So this is the scope of our samsāric problem. This also has to do with other things, such as the undeclared points. The Buddha says these wrong views ultimately stem from and depend upon contact. Views like “the world is infinite/finite/eternal/non-eternal” are included in this. To me, the Buddha’s use of the word 'loka’in this sense is part of the dialogue with his culture, where he is showing that metaphysical views are extrapolated from sense experience without actual grounding. Likewise, ideas of an external God or metaphysical Soul are due to going beyond sense experience. This is not random philosophy, but rather is one of the fetters that binds beings to rebirth. But this would be a whole other topic. Just pointing out another aspect of this.

Then we could say that “the arising of the world” focuses on the arising of sense experience on the more definite level of samsāra, not just momentary from one instant to another. So the arising of a new set of ‘senses’ to experience more sense contact in a new ‘world’ of sense experience.

We could lay out a possible definition to show this as follows:

  1. Loka [the phenomenal world, or the senses as they are ‘felt/experienced,’ which has an empty and ephemeral nature]
  2. Lokasamudaya [The perpetuation of the phenomenal world due to craving in samsāra]
  3. Lokanirodha [The ending of craving cuts the thread that ties together the being and its experience of the phenomenal world from life to life.]

Does that distinction make sense? (Oh, a pun!)
And if so, what are your thoughts? :smiley: :pray: I think I could probably say some more, but I’ll leave it at that and hope it’s enough for dialogue. Thanks again, venerable!

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Hi @Dogen,

I can read the above in two possible ways:

  • As a case for solipsism or mind-only - that because a fundamental distinction cannot be made between the internal and the external therefore that all is one
  • That no fundamental distinction can be made between nibbana and samsara as they both exist without essence

Did you intend one of these or another meaning? I’m partial to the latter. :pray:

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Rather the former. I’m not sure explaining nibbāna as an existence is apt. Or rather, I can explain samsara (mostly as dukkha) and then define it’s absence as nibbāna.

Or even, moving away from the baggage of these terms : Now, there’s experience and an experience of this experience; then, no experience, and not even an experience of no-experience.

Second view also feels quite dangerous to me as it enables basically any kind of immoral action to be justified just like a moral action since “they both exist without essence”: One could argue (if samsara and nibbana aren’t different at all) “That no fundamental distinction can be made between feeding a child or r*ping them, as they both exist without an essence.”

I’m not sure why someone who literally holds that view has any need to discuss, argue, learn, posit anything at all.

I think non-duality is important to realise everything that arises is suffering, and there’s a difference between suffering and absence of suffering. Nothing is anything other than suffering, but there’s also just the absence of suffering.

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Just because no fundamental distinction can be made is not the same as saying that no distinction at all can be made. Distinctions can be made! Some are quite useful and skillful while others are profoundly unskillful, harmful and downright dangerous.

Believing that just because a fundamental distinction cannot be made that other distinctions can’t or shouldn’t be made is a harmful conclusion I wasn’t intending and certainly don’t endorse. It is possible to understand that fundamental distinctions can’t be made, but nevertheless mere distinctions can/should be made and some are skillful and some are quite harmful.

The President of the United States and the Nile river are mere conventions. But just because they are mere conventions does not mean that they don’t exist or that by understanding them as conventions one can just ignore them without consequence. Understanding that the Nile river is just a convention does not prevent drowning in it.

:pray:

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Maybe @yeshe.tenley it would help facilitate communication if you explained the reconciliation between your above statement, and this other statement you’ve made:

Unless you’ve since changed your mind, it would appear that you agree with the OP that such language can be used. Maybe differentiating could help distinguish the nuances here between what you perceive to be misleading in the post vs. not misleading in your statement above. I think many people are also not familiar or convinced of certain distinctions such as ‘conventional’ vs ‘ultimate.’ But maybe everyone is convinced and on the same page.

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I’ll try Venerable.

Persons, beings, selves, and individuals exist, but they do so without any substantial existence. It is possible to acknowledge the existence of such while also understanding their existence is not a substantial one. Here I’m using the word ‘self’ not as essence, but just as a synonym for ‘person’, ‘being’, ‘individual’, and so on.

Sometimes when we use the word ‘self’ in Buddhism it stands for the view of the substantial existence of persons, beings, selves, and individuals. OTOH, it can also be used as just a synonym for persons, beings, selves and individuals. In my prior post that you pointed out I did not intend individual existence to imply a substantial existence.

In this very life, I walk around and experience the passage of time as “I” with a deeply held ignorance believing this “I” to be substantially existent. Depending upon this ignorance, this “I” appears to pass from moment to moment as a substantially existent entity. Following as best I can what I’ve understood the Teacher’s instructions to be, I’ve been trying for some time to practice not seeing this “I” as substantially existent and to question the appearance otherwise in order to dislodge or weaken this ignorance.

As a result of such practice I like to believe I’ve - in some small manner - weakened the conceptual ignorance taking this “I” as substantially existent. This has produced some doubt about the truth of the appearance of this “I” passing from moment to moment as a substantially existent entity. This doubt does not involve leaping to the extreme that the “I” is substantially non-existent. Rather, it seems to me that it is a dependently and conventionally existent entity.

Pondering rebirth in the light of this doubt, it seems to me that this “I” that appears to pass from moment to moment in this very life as a substantial existent, but is rather a dependent and conventional existent, would also pass from life to life in the very same manner; as a dependent and conventional existent.

This is what I meant when I said:

An individual existence continues after death for sentient beings.

So the question naturally arises: can the appearance of this substantially existent “I” cease? Yes, I think it can.

When that deeply held ignorance believing this “I” as substantially existent is completely given up and all desires formed around this “I” have been uprooted, I think the appearance of this “I” - seemingly passing from moment to moment in a substantially existent way - will have ceased.

This is what I meant when I said:

Individual existence only ceases with nibbana where no more rebirth of an individual existence can continue because that individual existence has ceased. :pray:

What’s being presented in this thread to my mind is a view of a self and not one that doubts the substantial existence of that self. All sentient beings - myself included - have this perpetual appearance of the substantial existence of the “I” passing from moment to moment that can be singled out and the world subdivided into the internal and external with regard to the appearance of this seemingly substantially existent entity.

When I said:

I was remarking on the focus of this thread seemingly singling out the dichotomy between internal and external to define the world as personal existence so as to understand the Kaccānagotta Sutta. It is my impression that this singling out is meant to invoke a substantialist understanding of the dichotomy and not a merely useful or skillful one to lessen desire for the self. As stated in the OP:

I disagree with this. We should give up focusing on our own existence. We should give up focusing on the “I” and the “mine” to the exclusion of all else. We’ve been focusing on our own existence for an inscrutably long time. Focusing on our own existence has lead to so much misery and suffering; it is time to give it up.

Rather, I see it as skillful to lessen the focus on this dichotomy and lessen the focus on personal existence to the exclusion of the external world. By breaking down this dichotomy and showing its completely insubstantial and merely conventional nature that is a skillful way to lessen desire for the self.

As Meggers quotes:

Since what is “in here” and what is “out there” are the same element, how can it be “my” body?

and

Rather, the sutta moves by collapsing the distinction between interior and exterior.

In the commentary of MN 28.

Just so. Hope that clarifies rather than adding more confusion :joy: :pray:

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See MN 28 and MN 1

And what are the four primary elements? Katamā cāvuso, cattāro mahābhūtā?
The elements of earth, water, fire, and air. Pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu.

And what is the earth element? Katamā cāvuso, pathavīdhātu? The earth element may be interior or exterior. Pathavīdhātu siyā ajjhattikā, siyā bāhirā.

And what is the interior earth element? Katamā cāvuso, ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu? Anything hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. Yaṁ ajjhattaṁ paccattaṁ kakkhaḷaṁ kharigataṁ upādinnaṁ, seyyathidaṁ— head hair, body hair, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, diaphragm, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, undigested food, feces, or anything else hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. kesā lomā nakhā dantā taco maṁsaṁ nhāru aṭṭhi aṭṭhimiñjaṁ vakkaṁ hadayaṁ yakanaṁ kilomakaṁ pihakaṁ papphāsaṁ antaṁ antaguṇaṁ udariyaṁ karīsaṁ, yaṁ vā panaññampi kiñci ajjhattaṁ paccattaṁ kakkhaḷaṁ kharigataṁ upādinnaṁ.

This is called the interior earth element. Ayaṁ vuccatāvuso, ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu.

The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element. Yā ceva kho pana ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu, yā ca bāhirā pathavīdhātu, pathavīdhāturevesā. This should be truly seen with right understanding like this: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’

Since what is “in here” and what is “out there” are the same element, how can it be “my” body?‘Taṁ netaṁ mama, nesohamasmi, na meso attā’ti—evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṁ.

When you truly see with right understanding, you grow disillusioned with the earth element, detaching the mind from the earth element. Evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya disvā pathavīdhātuyā nibbindati, pathavīdhātuyā cittaṁ virājeti.

There comes a time when the exterior water element flares up. Hoti kho so, āvuso, samayo yaṁ bāhirā āpodhātu pakuppati. At that time the exterior earth element vanishes. Antarahitā tasmiṁ samaye bāhirā pathavīdhātu hoti. So for all its great age, the earth element will be revealed as impermanent, liable to end, vanish, and perish. Tassā hi nāma, āvuso, bāhirāya pathavīdhātuyā tāva mahallikāya aniccatā paññāyissati, khayadhammatā paññāyissati, vayadhammatā paññāyissati, vipariṇāmadhammatā paññāyissati.

What then of this ephemeral body appropriated by craving? Rather than ‘I’ or ‘mine’ or ‘I am’, they consider it to be none of these things. Kiṁ panimassa mattaṭṭhakassa kāyassa taṇhupādinnassa ‘ahanti vā mamanti vā asmī’ti vā? Atha khvāssa notevettha hoti.

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Hello Venerable @Sunyo :pray:

One of the most common abilities developed by meditators, irrespective of spiritual path, is the ability to consciously detach from the physical body with the
mind-made body.

So in the context of buddhism being first and foremost a meditative path I don’t see how anyone would say Rohitassa’s quest may seem ”unbelievable or silly”…

It is a very common ability that enables one to visit the various heavens and should not be read as a mythology that symbolizes something.

But more as an actual experience.

All of the views of various ascetics mentioned in the suttas are based om actual experiences by meditators, like:

”Is the world a unity or a plurality?”
”Does all exist or does all not exist?”
”Is the mind and body the same or separate?”

It is only thanks to Dependent Origination that one can truly take the middle way approach and not fall into any such views.

But there are reasons for people having all of these views in the first place: Actual experiences.

To such people impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and not-self are far from obvious and evident and Dependent Origination is not as simple as some might have it to be, it is very deep.

Āhāravagga which includes Kaccānagottasutta SN 12.15 needs to be read as whole and in the context of DO.

Just as Venerable @Vaddha :pray: mentioned:

But I’ll gladly make the case based on suttas :smiling_face: since the following is said in Acelakassapasutta SN 12.17:

“Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is the same as the one who experiences the result,’ then one asserts with reference to one existing from the beginning: ‘Suffering is created by oneself.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to eternalism.

But, Kassapa, if one thinks, ‘The one who acts is one, the one who experiences the result is another,’ then one asserts with reference to one stricken by feeling: ‘Suffering is created by another.’ When one asserts thus, this amounts to annihilationism.

Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: - SN 12.17

DO is the middle way.

Now speaking of the world & the khandhas:

  • Can someone please explain in which world (plane of existence) the following is taking place?

  • And even how this is taking place when it comes to both the world(s) and the khandhas?

“It could be, Ānanda, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And they wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And yet they would still perceive.” - AN 10.6

:pray:

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The world (sense-spheres) is empty of both existence (externalism) of self-view and non-existence (annihilationism) of self-view.

A self/soul exists, this is one extreme. A self/soul does not exist, this is the other extreme. One does not insist on that existence (eternalism) or non-existence (nihilism) of self is my self. Then, when dukkha arises, it arises by causal condition (nidāna ); when dukkha ceases, it ceases by causal condition.

Cf. SN 12.15 and SA 301.

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This is exactly what stream winners get. Total annihilation of defilement of self view.

SA301 uses 若有、若無, which is have/exist vs none/not exist. No mention of soul doesn’t exist is the other extreme.

All dhammas are not self and the world is empty of self is enough to conclude no such thing as a soul.

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The ‘world’ in SA 301/SN12.15 is about see yourself (the sense-spheres) as you really are.

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You point out that the five factors of Conditioned Arising is very good point indeed. This ‘craving sequence’ is clearly the most concise formula that corresponds directly to two of the four noble truths (dukkha and the arising of dukkha).

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Very clear translation! Congratulations!

I think I know what you are trying to say, but I am not sure if you succeed. I would say there is no being apart from experience. Experience is all there is. When experience is gone, so are the senses and indeed consciousness. Or are you trying to make a distinction between the cessation of perception and feeling and parinibbāna?

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Amazing, so we can work with some common grounds!

The reason I have an issue with using suññata for anatta is because anatta already covers the insubstantialness of phenomena (self is a weak word, perhaps even ven. @Sunyo would like to start the revolution on the translations and start using “soul” instead!).

However, absence/emptiness in Pāli suttas refers to something being empty of something else (for example, Cūlasuññattasutta MN121) - this is what allows us to make a distinction between a soulless, insubstantial process like suffering and then even the absence of this suffering, the basis of our soteriology.

Using the Nile river as an example, as we’re being chained to the bottom of the Nile, samsara is the water, nibbāna is the absence of the water. In one example we drown to death, in another, we live. As such, there’s a clear phenomenological difference between an insubstantial process and its absence.

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So many replies… :o Thanks all! If I don’t respond, I’ll consider all of your replies again if I decide to write a final version one day.

If below I engage with any of you in disagreement, please know it is in order to understand my own thoughts better, not to dispute or prove anybody wrong.

Hi Green :slight_smile:

So would you then say the Buddha’s “world” is the mind only? I don’t think that would be right, although I would have less problems with that than certain other interpretations which take the definition of the world as the six senses even more unliterally.

But if we pull out our eyes, lose our inner ears, become quadriplegic and lose our sense of taste and smell, how much of the world would we still perceive? Not much :slight_smile: , unless through some psychic powers. So we still need the five senses to perceive the world, even if these are just some sort of intermediate towards the mind, as explained in SN48.42. Yes, without mind we would be unconscious but that doesn’t mean we perceive everything with the mind only. Without the sense of sight we would be “sight-unconscious” for example.

Also, in my view the five senses are not just “material”. I translate it as “sense of sight” etc. instead of the common “eye”. One of the reasons for that is this. Cakkhu doesn’t refer to the physical eye but the whole faculty of sight, which goes beyond the body. Buddhism doesn’t espouse the mind/body duality that is popular elsewhere.

PS. If you can avoid making this topic (like many others) about your ideas of an original pure mind, I would appreciate that. You can start your own topic about it if you want.

Thanks for the feedback! :slight_smile:

I can see why it seems this way and will change some of the wording, because that wasn’t the point I was trying to make. The Kaccanagotta sutta itself says that wrong views are avoided when one doesn’t assume a self, so I was hoping people would understand that I wasn’t proposing a self with words like “personal existence”. But just for clarity if you can, are you saying this because you concluded this just from the words themselves, or because you disagree with my understanding of ‘the world’ and then concluded I must therefore also use/understand terms like “personal existence” wrongly?

Ven. NgXinZhao understood what I was getting at. “Personal existence” refer not to a self but to the individual being (or “one specific set of five aggregates”, if you prefer to put it such a technical way that is less likely to be misunderstood as a self). I was trying to oppose it to existence in general, the existence of the whole universe or something like that.

I feel often it’s helpful to use conventional language, even if making a deep point on dhamma. Even the Buddha used words like “self” (atta) to describe rebirth (DN9) and then said he was just using conventional language. If we phrase everything in terms of ultimate truth, it’ll end up sounding like an Abhidhamma of sorts. :smiley: Then we can never again use words like ‘individual’, ‘person’, ‘I’, ‘self’, etc. in any normal way. :

But I’ll see what I can change in a potential final version, because we’re not actually fundamentally disagreeing about this topic of non-self. It seems you’re stumbling over the specific terminology rather than the ideas behind them, which is unfortunate but I assume the fault of my writing.

The topic of non-self wasn’t the point of my post here. I plan to explain that later in light of the Kaccānagotta Sutta. In short, I agree that the two wrong notions are both views of a self or “substantial person” if you will. But the view of “existence” I think primarily refers to the existence of such a self with relation to rebirth, i.e. existence after death.

But for now my post was primarily about understanding what ‘the world’ refers to, not non-self yet. As to “the world”:

Kind of. ‘The world’ also includes the experiences that arise through those senses, which are inseparable from the senses themselves.

Of course, the senses themselves are also processes, not entities. But they need to completely cease for the world to cease.

Are you suggesting Dependent Arising is about the origination and cessation of the literal world? That to reach the end of the world we need to reach the end of the conventional world? If not, then you must also have some non-literal, non-conventional interpretation.

If yes, you may be an exception and may want to explain. Everybody else I’ve read or heard talk about this text has some non-literal interpretation of the arising/cessation of ‘the world’ in the Kaccānagotta Sutta. So to me the question is not whether ‘the world’ is to be taken literally or not, but which non-literal interpretation aligns closest with the discourses.

Hi Venerable, :slight_smile:

Are you saying that the views of (non)existence are false because they are not, in a sense, “experienced” by the arahant after death? (I hope you get what I’m trying to describe clumsily.) That’s one way to think about it. But it seems a bit convoluted to me. Perhaps I’m not completely understanding you?

I think the terms atthitā and natthitā should be understood more objectively. One problem is, the translations ‘existence’ and ‘nonexistence’ aren’t particularly helpful, especially if not placed in the context of rebirth. These terms refer to specific views about existence after death, namely personal eternal existence or the destruction of the person when they die (e.g. “the self = body”). The Pāli commentarial tradition also explains them as such.

There is a lot of support for this in earlier texts too. I’ll argue for it in detail later. For now, a Sanskrit text) uses nāstitā (=natthitā, ‘nonsurvival’ or “nonexistence”) as a substitute for uccheda (‘annihilation’). And in SN12.17 the middle teaching of Dependent Arising is said to avoid eternalism and annihilationism. That is what atthitā and natthitā refer to. It’s better to think of them as “the notion that one still exists” and “the notion that one no longer exists” (after death). That’s more literal as well, because atthi is a verb (“exists”), not a noun (“existence”).

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This sounds questionable. I have read the word ‘perception’ used in various ways, such as ‘perception of self’ (saññāvipallāsā) & ‘perception of not-self’. Also AN 4.45 uses the words sasaññimhi samanake which do not read as simply ‘perception & mind’. This does read like the ‘six senses themselves’. You quoted SN 12.44, which says the world ceases while the six senses are conscious. The ‘world’ cannot refer to the six senses. In SN 12.44 the ‘world’ reads to have the same meaning as ‘suffering’. Have we not yet seen the sufferings of the world to understand the world is suffering & suffering is the world?

Commentary I heard is not reliable.

Have this statement overlooked the meaning of “a being” in SN 23.2?

This also sounds questionable. These definitions again sound Commentary rather than Sutta. In Sutta, eternalism & annihilationism are read as views of self in different varying contexts, such as in DN 1, SN 44.10, SN 12.17, others.

I cannot imagine the above statement gaining very much popularity. This reads to depart completely from the Buddha’s teachings and, is itself, looking for love in all the wrong places.

SN 12.15 reads as thought it itself answers the question. SN 12.15 says:

The world is for the most part shackled by attraction, grasping, and insisting. But if—when it comes to this attraction, grasping, mental fixation, insistence, and underlying tendency—you don’t get attracted, grasp, and commit to the notion ‘my self’, you’ll have no doubt or uncertainty that what arises is just suffering arising, and what ceases is just suffering ceasing. Your knowledge about this is independent of others.

The arising & ceasing of the world reads to be the arising & ceasing of suffering of self-views. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Patisambhidamagga learns that sunnatanupassana and anattanupassana are different in wording but same in meaning. It refers to the same contemplation and insight.

That text also refers to Nibbana as Supreme/Ultimate Emptiness.

Patisambhidamagga has a ‘Treatise on Emptiness’.

Emptiness, i believe, is a phenomenological way to talk about the nature of mind. When mind is progressively stilled it reveals as being empty, stilled. Stilled, so empty.

Great meditation masters teach that this still remains no true knowledge of the nature of mind, because this emptiness of the mind that is experienced in jhana has still the observer in it. In that sense it is not really empty.

It is like someone who is in a room. Removes all objects from that room and then sees…this room is empty now. While he himself is still in the room! So, this room is not really empty. So jhana cannot reveal the true nature of mind.

Teachers describe how there can be a moment that the empty room and the one abiding in that emptiness suddenly collapes and the true nature of mind reveals to be a luminosity all around.
An emptiness but at the same time luminous, an ability to know. But this can never be seen in jhana nor as object of sense vinnana. Whatever the mano-vinnana takes as object that is not the Truth.

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Not a refutation per se, but I do think the Madhyamikas overinterpret the Kaccanagotta sutta. Their take on it is not necessarily inconsistent with the early Buddhist point of view, but it extends beyond it considerably. It uses the concepts of emptiness/self as well as atthitā and natthitā in ways that go beyond the early texts.

That’s largely because the Madhyamakakarika is not a commentary on the early texts but a reply to the Abhidharma projects, which were already over-applying certain teachings such as Dependent Arising.

I have no real objections to Madhyamaka philosophy beyond that, though.

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Hi Venerable,

Thanks for the great and lucid thoughts.

Exactly! And I think that’s also what the Buddha was trying to do with his definition of ‘the world’.

It means understanding the cessation of the mind and body (or six senses, if you will) at parinibbāna. But to understand this you don’t have to directly experience it. The Buddha himself also said he knew rebirth was ended while he was still alive. He knew he wasn’t going to have a future body, while still having a body. The arahants including the Buddha also regularly use the future tense to refer to things they know, e.g. “existence will cease” in MN49. This clearly refers to the cessation of existence in Dependent Arising. Thag16.1 is also illustrative:

It also uses the future tense vigamissanti to refer to the disappearance of the sankhāras, i.e. aggregates.

Right. But what you realize is the future cessation of current and potential future senses, senses of this life and potential future lives.

What is understood is the connections between the factors of dependent arising. If you understand how craving and ignorance lead to rebirth, then you also understand that the six senses (the “world”) will cease when there is no more craving and ignorance at death.

It’s an inference, we can say, rather than a direct experience. But with the caveat that “inference” sounds too intellectual to me. It is a direct insight into the future, which is also known to be inevitable at that point. It’s like, you just know without doubt what is going to happen, what is going to cease. And why and how. It’s an insight into the future but so direct it can be called directly witnessing.

If this book I’ve been talking about ever comes to pass, I’ll devote a section or chapter on the actual insights of right view as well, in connection to the Kaccanagotta Sutta. :slight_smile:

I agree. I never said that the “world” is the senses only. I said “primarily” because that’s how Ānanda defines it. But in other “definitions” it includes experiences very clearly as well, since these are intrinsically linked to the senses.

But the senses themselves only cease at the death of an enlightened being, and this is what someone with right view understands (among other things).

Yes, exactly. This is the normal use of the word “see” in this context, such as in yathabhutañāṇadassana.

1 and 2, yes. But 3 not exactly, because right view also involves a temporary cessation of experiences as a result of letting go of all attachment. This is how the mind can start to link the cessation of craving to the eventual cessation of existence at parinibbāna.

But right view does not involve a cessation of the senses themselves, which I think we can reasonably say stay intact (at least the “physical” ones) even when all experience stops. It’s not like your eye (or your general faculty to see) ceases when eye-consciousness ceases, for example.

The suttas also speak of the potential of sights hitting the eye but no eye-consciousness arising at that time. So we shouldn’t equate experience to the senses; there is a differerence here. That’s actually a good point I may want to include, thanks! :slight_smile:

If the internal sense of sight is intact, but no external sight comes within its scope, and there is no corresponding engagement there, then the corresponding section of consciousness [i.e. sight-consciousness] does not arise. If the internal sense of sight is intact, an external sight comes within its scope, but there is no corresponding engagement there, then the corresponding section of consciousness also does not arise. But if the internal sense of sight is intact, an external sight comes within its scope, and there is corresponding engagement there, then the corresponding section of consciousness does arise. [Same for the other 5 senses.] (MN28)

As long as we are alive, whether enlightened or not, the senses are still intact, but there isn’t necessarily experience coming from them all the time.

No it isn’t. But that is the most common annihilationist view, and also the most extreme one, and the Kaccanagotta Sutta describes the “extreme” views of “most of the world”.

What made me realize this as well is the Sanskrit sutta I mentioned earlier, parallel to DN2, which uses natthitā to describe the materialist view of annihilation:

iti bālaś ca paṇḍitaś ca ubhāv api etau pretya ucchidyete vinaśyataḥ na bhavataḥ paraṁ maraṇāt

tadyathā bhadanta āmrāṇi pṛṣṭaḥ lakucāni vyākuryāt, lakucāni vā pṛṣṭaḥ āmrāṇi vyākuryād eva pūraṇaḥ kāśyapaḥ mayā sāndṛṣṭikaṁ śrāmaṇyaphalaṁ pṛṣṭaḥ nāstitām eva vyākārṣīt

To paraphrase, the King Ajātaśatru explains that the view “both the foolish and wise are annihilated when the body breaks down at death” is the view of natthitā.

Also, Prince Payasi’s materialist view in DN23 is labelled ‘natthikavāda’, the doctrine of nonsurvival, with a clear link to natthitā.

And other suttas on the middle teaching (e.g. SN12.17, SN12.46) also describe materialist views as the extreme. For example, “the soul equals the body” is one extreme, which is ascribed to the materialist Prince Payasi by the Jain parallel. The Greek materialists also had this view.

That isn’t to say that multiple-lifetime annihilation isn’t also avoided by the middle teaching. It is. But whether natthitā explicitly refers to this view, I don’t think so.

But I’ll get back to all this in the future, as I said. Thanks for bringing it up. It’ll help me to phrase it better.

But does that refer to momentary cessation of contact or the cessation contact altogether, i.e. the cessation of the whole “aggregate” of contact, if you will? I read it as the latter. For one, because it is preceded by the cessation of the six senses. (The two principles are connected, though: the complete cessation of contact can only be understood by first having a momentary cessation of contact.)

I think I lost you at this point, I apologize. :frowning: What exact distinction are you referring to? But perhaps it’s clear what I think from the rest of my reply.

Anyway, in short, I think the essay doesn’t need much rephrasing because you understood my general point correctly. That point will also be clearer when I start addressing how the right view avoids the notions of survival and nonsurvival.

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Dear Bhante, :pray:

I think what I’m trying to say will be more clear in opposition to the views I briefly refer to at the start. I didn’t want to turn things into a polemic, though. In short, such views generally state that an arahant is free from suffering, because “the world” has ceased for them.

And, as Ven. Vaddha realized, such views tend to marginalize the importance of rebirth both in the Kaccanagotta Sutta and Dependent Arising in general, if they don’t completely take rebirth out.

But in my view, the “world” is defined the way it is exactly to bring us back to contemplating rebirth. The true arising of “the world” is rebirth, in other words, not some momentary perceptual process, of whatever kind.

With this I disagree, Bhante. See the MN28 quote I referenced in reply to Venerable Vaddha, on the senses being intact but no consciousness (i.e. experience) arising at that time. Saying that the senses cease when experience ceases, although I see where you’re coming from, I think is too much of an idealist interpretation that the suttas don’t exactly have. Likewise, the being doesn’t cease in an attainment of cessation. The suttas still talk about there being a body at that point, for example.

To illustrate, if you go into a deep meditation, you don’t conclude afterwards that your eye and ear etc. had ceased to exist. Sure, you were unaware of them for a while, so how can you know for sure? That’s what I think you’re trying to say. But the natural conclusion will be that they were still existent during the meditation, just not functioning. In other words, the faculty of sight (in the sense of the potential power to see things) was still there. This only ceases forever at parinibbāna.

And that is what ‘the world’ includes as well.

I’ll clarify this in a potential later version, because it seems Venerable Vaddha struggled with the same point. So thanks for the comment. :pray:

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