There is no selfexisting thing in ones experience

Discussion
41

Ah you must see the cat and the whole world outside existing

First you should see your process of seeing, what you actually seen is colours and shapes, then you start to give name to such shape and colour

In reality what you seen is just shape and colour

Then the shape start moving and it create feeling in you, you react to your feeling and you also exist , so does the cat.

But in reality, from the frame of universe, there is no you nor the cat. Just cycle of energy movement, like you watch a simulation. The simulation doesnt really exist.

2 Likes
42

As long as firefox is not a being (who is on a journey in the samsāra because of the craving and wrong view.

Mendicants, transmigration has no known beginning.
“Anamataggoyaṃ, bhikkhave, saṃsāro.
No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.
Pubbā koṭi na paññāyati avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ sandhāvataṃ saṃsarataṃ(SN 15.13).

To have a cognition one should have an object (rūpa).
Priliminary process of seeing is arising of Eye consciousness. When it arises the process continues to generate the identification of a cat.

Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso. Phassapaccayā vedanā
In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling comes to be (SN 35.60).

So to make a cognition there should be an external fact (object). This is what we should see with our wisdom. In a way this is realizing the difference between what is inside and outside. More precisely how one feel things through his senses which are arised from his past kamma.

There are internal and external great elements. Some are not belongs to so called beings. Some belong to them.

what is the interior earth element?
Katamā ca, bhikkhu, ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu?

Anything hard, solid, and organic that’s internal, pertaining to an individual.
Yaṃ ajjhattaṃ paccattaṃ kakkhaḷaṃ kharigataṃ upādinnaṃ (so on.)

This is called the interior earth element.
ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhu, ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu.

The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element.
Yā ceva kho pana ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu yā ca bāhirā pathavīdhātu pathavīdhāturevesā(MN 140).

So there is not a real cat(?). There is something that consists of six elements that we identify as a (so called) cat. What are those six elements?

There are these six elements:
Chayimā, bhikkhu, dhātuyo—
the elements of earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness.
pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu, ākāsadhātu, viññāṇadhātu(MN 140).

4 Likes
43

These kind of musings are simply old wine in new bottles…

Brain in a vat dilemma
Do we live in a computer simulation

What one should recognize is that this too is a view… and holding fast to this view will bring its own kind of dukkha…
Whatever exists out there is irrelevant to the immediate question of how to end suffering… they may be useful as a tactic, but ultimately such questions are better laid aside.
Unless you want your head split into 7 parts!
:rofl:

7 Likes
44

By the activity of the eye organ being stimulated by the environment mental picture :large_blue_circle: (rūpa) comes about which gives rise to eye perception (looks like blue, round). Eye organ does not see objects. You have never seen object. Only after one is trying to interpret what was perceived he starts to think about objects. The only ‘fact’ that is actually going on is the eye organ being stimulated by the environment and you are not even aware of that directly, you are only aware of the image made in connection with that activity. The form and color you are perceiving is dependent on the activity of the eye faculty, not a fact.

45

Agree.

Not the eye faculty only. Its a hugely profound and interconnected Web of phenemona the full scope of which only a Lord Buddha can see. For, if you close your eye lids you don’t see, if you look left you don’t see what’s on the right. If you look right you don’t see what’s on the left. If you turn of the light…

I agree with Hwbao, it’s more like a simulation. There is a common reality we are all interacting with. Like right now, we are using this forum to interact with each other. But what this reality is Blessed One has not declared. I guess this is captured by what is termed the lokadhatu but Blessed One has cautioned not to think about that.

As Ven Amatabhani said “Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati Cakkhuviññāṇaṃ”. Its Anicca, Dukkka and Anatta. To eradicate any suffering over it we need only eradicate delight(nandi).

1 Like
46

See this is the thing which important to be emphasized, where the great difference of philosopher and enlightened beings is

Philosophers only view and talk about it, while the spiritual seekers really look into the experience and come out as not a being anymore, and live in that state of nibbana.

Dont laid aside such genuine question, it should be the most important one in one’s life , because you seen that you have lived like a fool when you notice that in the process of seeing things, the truth is not so.

When you already in samma ditthi, you should proceed to the rest, the 7 noble paths to walk on… then free yourself…

Not just think about it and get the head split apart, but put it into living experience. Nibbana as a living experience, — someone wrote about this book in accesstoinsight.com

B.Punnaji like to put it “awakening from the dream of existence” … but becareful because such sentence might lead your view to another fake reality, which not Buddha taught.

Caught in no view , because view is a projection of your thoughts from datas of the past. Live in dhamma, the real experience.

So the way lead out of this existence is only and only 4noble truth and 8 noble patch, no more no less

1 Like
47

An ordinary question comes to mind.

If we shave the cat completely is it still a cat?
What exactly is the cat?

Is it that which has conditioned me to get up and provide food at unholy hours of the morning (here we shall not kill)?

Perhaps that is a cat.

1 Like
48

“Existence is delusion.”

Can change be understood or explained without existence?

1 Like
49

Delusion causes existance

Mendicants, transmigration has no known beginning.
“Anamataggoyaṃ, bhikkhave, saṃsāro.
No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving.
Pubbā koṭi na paññāyati avijjānīvaraṇānaṃ sattānaṃ taṇhāsaṃyojanānaṃ sandhāvataṃ saṃsarataṃ (SN 15.19)

2 Likes
50

Hello Bhante,

Does not that imply linear causality which implies a root cause or an origin?

pratītyasamutpāda, as a theory, would need to begin the causal chain from somewhere (avijjā or moha), but should not we consider this as a necessity (or limitation) integral to using conventions?

Would it be more accurate to use circular (or reciprocal) causality where both existence and delusion feed into each other? or that there is no meaningful difference between them similar to cause and effect as they keep on exchanging positions ad infinitum.

51

Yes:

“But does Master Gotama have any convictions [of existence, foremost] at all?”

“Atthi pana bhoto gotamassa kiñci diṭṭhigatan”ti?

“The Realized One has done away with convictions.

“Diṭṭhigatanti kho, vaccha, apanītametaṃ tathāgatassa.

For the Realized One has seen:

Diṭṭhañhetaṃ, vaccha, tathāgatena:

‘Such is form, such is the origin of form, such is the ending of form.

‘iti rūpaṃ, iti rūpassa samudayo, iti rūpassa atthaṅgamo;

Such is feeling, such is the origin of feeling, such is the ending of feeling.

iti vedanā, iti vedanāya samudayo, iti vedanāya atthaṅgamo;

Such is perception, such is the origin of perception, such is the ending of perception.

iti saññā, iti saññāya samudayo, iti saññāya atthaṅgamo;

Such are choices, such is the origin of choices, such is the ending of choices.

iti saṅkhārā, iti saṅkhārānaṃ samudayo, iti saṅkhārānaṃ atthaṅgamo;

Such is consciousness, such is the origin of consciousness, such is the ending of consciousness.’

iti viññāṇaṃ, iti viññāṇassa samudayo, iti viññāṇassa atthaṅgamo’ti.

That’s why the Realized One is freed with the ending, fading away, cessation, giving up, and letting go of all identifying, all worries, and all ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit, I say.”

Tasmā tathāgato sabbamaññitānaṃ sabbamathitānaṃ sabbaahaṅkāramamaṅkāramānānusayānaṃ khayā virāgā nirodhā cāgā paṭinissaggā anupādā vimuttoti vadāmī”ti.

The important point of this thread is basically just that. When one sees the ‘five aggregates’ like that, upholding view of existence is done away with. One can not find any real existence there of anything.

The biggest problem is that people don’t understand and don’t see even as much as ‘such is’ i.e. they don’t understand or see what even really is rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhārā or viññāṇa, let alone origin or end of them. Or they hold that there is something beyond The All

52

Lets say it is curcular, when it comes to getting over it, I could say it is more like rotating a fireball with a string.
String similar to craving(thanhā). the fire ring we see is like the existance (fire of jarāmarana). We see a ring untill we have the avijjānīvaraṇa. When the string breaks there is no ring.

1 Like
53

Yes.

We sense change. A warm, soft touch is just a warm, soft touch.

“Existence” is just a useful convention that refers to a group recurring sensations. My “cat” is a bundle of warmth, soft and purring. :cat:

Craving recurring sensations inevitably leads to suffering. Where’s my cat? :scream_cat:

Without wishes, become holy. :hole:

2 Likes
54

To those responding to “Can change be understood or explained without existence?”
… there are 4 Noble Truths.

This was the Buddha’s teaching.

Delusion causes rebirth. I do not think it is logically possible to say what (if anything) causes existence.

1 Like
55

upadana paccaya bhavo

From paticca samuppada - ‘upadana’ leads to existence. (To explain what upadana actually means is long story, but its definitely not ‘clinging’)

You also might find interesting:

bhava paccaya jati

Which means that you think of being born because by delusion you think that you exist, not that you exist because you were born as it is bhava(existence) paccaya jati(birth) not jati(birth) paccaya bhava(existance)!

Even more interesting:

bhava-nirodha nibbana

(and not jati-nirodha nibbana!)

The conceit I am is literally the thing Arahant gets rid of. It is not possible to be free from that conceit and think that you exist at the same time and in similar fashion that applies to holding to views! You want to be free from delusion but only as long as you get to keep it in some way. :joy_cat:

1 Like
56

Yes, the string can be broken from tanha and avijja, so we cannot say it feed each other , although it is circular

Because you cannot stop the existence then delusion stop, but you can stop the delusion which created in tanha then the upadana cease and bhava also ceased

If you noticed, they are actually answering you from 2nd noble truth — the cause of dukkha- paticca sammupada

And you must understand the string completely first so you can be free like sayadaw mogok taught (last arahant with relic) …

Delusion cannot directly cause rebirth but it cause upadana , then upadana cause existence, and because existence, kamma exist, then we all caught in time and space with past present future then the existence cause rebirth

But cessation of desire, aversion, delusion in tanha can lead to cessation of upadana in five khandas, then lead to cessation of existence which is nibbana. Bhava nirodho nibbanam

And these are 3rd noble truth, cessation of dukkha

57

Thread seems to be using “you” a lot. @lovegood @hwbao That can be a problematic way of trying to say what one wants to say. It might lead to confusion or worse. Even if the stated topic is not “there is no selfexisting thing in ones experience”! Let’s avoid that construct?

There are 4 Noble Truths. Not one, not two; nor is the Buddha’s teaching, [solipsism][Solipsism - Wikipedia] or purely philosophical idealism; it seems to me that any system which emphasizes moral behaviors sidesteps, at least, those mental traps.

So I am concerned about the direction one might go, if only the first 2 Noble Truths lead; they are incomplete.

Metta.

58

Oh :pray: I apologize for my choice of word. See … there are some reasons too for the word “you” … because people tend to avoid and pretend they are divine or something.
And when using “you” , Im not really pointing you as a person, but usually people’s defilement , which will eventually show up and react, so sometimes can help

Yes not completed one yet, but one must be patience and proceed with questions and discoveries with their senses… maybe what you meant here what’s the 3rd and 4th?

The third already mentioned by lovegood and 4th is requiring one to walk the 8th noble path

With all due respect and metta :pray:

Solipsm is a very good word, thanks for sharing, in process of dependant origination, where phassa is seen , one might feel that way

But the problem with solipsm is one must identify that his own mind/ 5 khandas doesnt really exist too

59

"But the problem with solipsm is one must identify that his own mind/ 5 khandas doesnt really exist too. "

I agree (except perhaps with the word “the”).
There is as I understand it logic underlying the 4 Noble Truths as complete, perhaps the same logic underlying what is permitted/allowed, what is required, and what remains undefined in the Holy Life. The ordained are not permitted (AFAIK) for example to establish a bhikkhu life independent of laity; this seems key rather than merely convenient, for the benefit of many, for the preservation for a long time of the Dhamma and the Dispensation of Gautama Buddha. Perhaps it is a simile?

Thank you for the chat. (edit: I am retiring from the thread; I have shared some thoughts and concerns, which might be of benefit; best wishes for every one.)

60

In order to stop delusion, by definition, existence must be sustained. Why the desire to free oneself from delusion is different?