Thought experiment - a genderless vinaya

I think mixed communities will naturally give rise to intimacy and issues of lust. Politics aside, it is obviously going to take place. What I think the issue here, correct me if I am wrong, is the issue of dominance and subjugation. As mentioned earlier in the thread there are places where a Bhikkhuni can ordain (not in Tibet) like CA where these are not issues. Then it becomes more an issue of principles.

It is actually more an issue of gender politics- which is not a bad thing, but rather, progressive. How do we change the ancient vinaya- can it be changed? I have my doubts, though it would be nice if we could.

I think there is a lot to be said for developing a bhikkhuni only ordination where you are free to develop your own vinaya, seeking support from others or sustaining yourselves (its not necessary to depend on supporters if it can be developed from the ground up, but could if you wanted to) and strike out on your own path!

with metta

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I understood that you were saying that this “thing” (whether or not a “problem”) tends to happen more easily in a mixed community than in a separate one. Maybe that’s not what you meant? And that made me think that homosexual people in a separate community might be even more exposed to it than heterosexual ones, even in a mixed community with separate areas.

I probably don’t quite understand what you want to say by this. Being gay or bisexual is in my opinion not a moral issue…

You are certainly right that the two points (genderless vinaya and the question of mixed communities) are closely related. I just wanted to make clear that there is a difference, though. The don’t necessarily go together.

And I hope that what I said didn’t sound to you as a personal criticism. That wasn’t what I intended to do. I too was talking about the “side issue”! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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@vimalanyani
Dear ayya , I understand you are going for higher ordination , best wishes to you .
According to vinaya , after the ordination you have to stay five years with your preceptor for learning . Nowadays , this thing never really being follows , but , it is up to individual . I have seen many people including samanera and new bhikhhu whom regard themselves as being "under controlled " , subjugated by someone else , and at the end either they find their own place or space or finally disrobes ! Therefore , not only that the females having this situation .

If you find that many “minor” rules where today many seems to disregard , that is something I hope you don’t lightly to abandon . I don’t know you or other people , but as an ex samanera nearly for a year , I served and running around helping nearly everything in the temple and learned quite a lot from it . I bowed to a new bhikhhu whom are much younger than me . I was ordered around by senior samaneras and bhikhkhus , from sweeping the floors cleaning the halls , washing toilets , washing the robes , serving the seniors etc , you name it . Don’t think it as an oppressions !

Life in the monastery with a strict vinaya being upholds is very beneficial and conducive for trainings in the dhamma . These things about vinaya is difficult for everyone to uphold .

If you do find the “minor” rules are unrelated to your trainings , that is totally up to you . However , the whole thing about vinaya was laid down by an Enlightened Buddha himself , and I would think , unless if you are capable of attaining Liberation or get enlightened , otherwise , bear in mind that you are trying to do something according to your defiles mind in which will change the whole of the vinaya and dhamma which you should be very very careful !

I would think you are a very intelligent and capable person in many aspects , but , the trainings as a laity and in monastic lifestyle is not the same thing . Don’t bring all your mundane mentality into the life of a renunciate , that will prevent you from attaining Liberation . All the things you have talked about may become your own barriers and obstacles to your trainings .
I have seen many intelligent bhikkhus disrobes either because of desires , or they can’t live under others . Because they have too much views and prouds in the mind . When we are too intelligent we will tend to loose hold of our self as conceit take holds . There were many intelligent bhikkhus with many (10/20/30) rains retreats regressed in the trainings after they became famous and too much social activities .

Anyway , I could be wrong as well , but , did not the Buddha set the rules that allow females to Ordain Once only in a life time , that is a very limited chance to practise . If you think it in terms of equality , that according to today view is not democratic .

All the best to you . Smooth and safe journey to your ordination destination .

Ps. There was an old monk gave me an advice , the minor rules helps one to develop humility and khanti as well .

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I’m going to start the desert tradition (as opposed to forest tradition) sometime in the future! It will be a monastery in the great desert tradition so this means there will be little chance for talking in the first place! Aggressive “Silence” signs will be everywhere, with the image of the “Queen of Hearts” screaming it out tyrannically!

One vinaya for all residents irrespective of gender. And people will live there like anagamis. But … I will rule that thing with an iron fist and the reach of my aversion, cruelty, and wrath, will not discriminate between genders! :stuck_out_tongue: so you see what I mean, even with a perfect vinaya, it’s all about who is in control of reality.

You got to approach this whole issue from above, not from the same level. From above and from far away also. Not thinking ‘I am’ man or woman, subjugated or free. No one is free, and no one enjoys subjugating others including those who indulge in subjugating others!

And I’m not interested in a suffering-free monastic experience :stuck_out_tongue: you make a perfect sangha, I’m not interested! Cuz I’m done with spending time fighting off suffering. There is no suffering!

The maximum possible extent of contentment!

images

Oh no of course not! You generally shouldn’t worry about this with me because I don’t take anything personally, including a personal attack! :slight_smile: it is sunny and the breeze is cool, and nothing is personal, unless there is a soul, and there ain’t. :relaxed:
And thanks for ayya @vimalanyani for starting this interesting discussion.

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Yes, the freedom of being an island unto oneself is liberating. The Buddha’s utterance on subjugation from Visākhā Sutta :

All subjection to others is painful.
All independence is bliss.
What is held in common brings suffering,
for duties are hard to overcome.

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"During the Dhamma talk he kept on stressing that women are less intelligent and inferior to men. "
This is really against the teaching of The Buddha.
At the time of giving ordination to Gotami He clearly told Ven Ananda about equality in realizing the Truth.
"bhabbo, ānanda, mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajitvā sotāpattiphalampi sakadāgāmiphalampi anāgāmiphalampi arahattaphalampi sacchikātu”

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@Sumanatissa
Dear bhante ,

May I ask , at the time when the Buddha still alive , has any females disciples ever disagrees with the Vinaya ?

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I never came across such a situation in EBT.:smiling_face:

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@Sumanatissa

Thank you bhante . :anjal:

My impression of the whole bhikkhunis, gender, etc. issues is that it’s in some sense a catch-22. If you don’t speak or act for reform, you’re part of the problem, a misogynist, supporting patriarchy, etc. If you do speak or act for reform, you’re full of wrongheaded non-Dhammic passion, trying to cause a schism in the Sangha, a social justice warrior, etc. Those are the extreme ends of how the extremists on each side can view others. Both ends are detrimental to everyone and to making progress on this issue. Anyone who expresses such views has lost most of their credibility with me on this issue. And I imagine I’m not the only moderate type person who thinks this way.

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Actually if you consider the Gotami account accurate, then there is the account of her going back to the Buddha and asking for some of the Garudhammas to be rescinded.

There are also many examples of both nuns and monks from the EBTs being described not keeping patimokkha rules.

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Perhaps the question in Op is about whether Buddha would have had those Vinaya rues if he alive now. Now the women are more on par with men.
They do not need the protection of men. They have the financial freedom etc.
This problem is something similar to people trying to rewrite the bible or Koran.
I have no answer to these question except to say all of these are Maras bate and part of Samsara. The conventional reality vs ultimate.
If your true objective is to attain Nibbana any of these not matters.

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Not keeping rules and Opposing is totally different issues !

The majority of females in Asia and south east Asia is still very much dependent !
Looking at the constant Rape cases in India could give you a hint !

Agree.
I have the firsthand experience in this case as I am from Sri Lanka.
Women are still very much helpless in these societies.
Then the question comes whether we should have different Vinya rules for Western monks and nuns.
Actually, the law protects women than men in Western countries specially it come to family matters.

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It does not matter how progressive the western world we still have separate public toilets for men and women. Then we have nude beaches. Now I am totally confused.

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This is getting off topic. Please return to the original OP topic.

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Progressive does not necessary mean we have to change everything in the vinaya !

As this topic has strayed from the original OP topic, it has now been closed.

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