The points you raise are exactly the point Ayya is trying to address with this thought experiment.
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My guess is the thought experiment is largely un-implementable in practice. But if Theravadin Bhikkhunis wanted to dump a few silly minor rules about deferring to men from the Vinaya, that should be fairly easy.
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That’s interesting why do you say both those statements?
I can imagine eliminating the ‘silly rules’ wouldn’t really be easy, but could be more doable than other options.
But why do you say the experiment would be un-implementable in practice? What’s stopping someone from buying a property, planting some kutis on it, and starting a community like this?
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I imagine it would be a totally different and non-theravadin demographic who would be open to basically starting a new school of buddhism, since as said before, the genderless community probably couldn’t be theravadin. But this sort of progressive demographic tends to be populated by vipassana meditators who build meditation centers and pay lay people, they don’t tend to fork out millions for monasteries.
However, for Theravadins who already support Bhikkhunis, they probably won’t mind if everyone just dispenses with the bowing among monastics and if the Bhikkhunis largely just do their own thing separate from Bhikkhus. I live in California, and while I haven’t visited any Bhikkhuni monasteries yet, they are all separate from what I’ve looked up and don’t seem to be physically close to or have any official affiliations with Bhikkhu monasteries. So I don’t think the gender issues in the Vinaya even ever really arise. And if some California Bhikkhuni wants to go on a wandering tour by herself, I don’t think that a bunch of Theravadins are going to be popping out of the bushes to wag their fingers in disapproval at her. I imagine if she wanders past a Thai restaurant the laypeople will be happy enough to give her a meal without pestering her on the Vinaya.
Anyway, I could be wrong on all counts. I’m just putting forward a minimally educated guess.
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Sure I certainly see your point of view.
BTW if you’re in California, you’re in prime bhikkhuni-spotting real estate! I highly recommend visiting some of the Bhikkhuni monasteries to get a better idea of their livelihood and interactions with both other monastics and the laity. Also they’re really nice!
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Yes the Buddha warns about this quite frequently in the suttas. When renunciant man and woman are separated from one another they might develop a sense of confidence in their command over their passions. But that doesn’t mean they do in fact have such command! Once contact is established, and is sustained, profound emotions can so easily arise and sway the heart. There is only torment after this stage, and this is well known to be one of the foremost reasons for dissatisfaction with monastic life and disrobing.
This understanding, or rather, it is a kind of humility in fact, the humility to recognise the kind of contact that will be so dangerous and overpowering vis à vis one’s capacities - is sometimes just the thing which allows one to persevere long in this difficult renunciate life.
I don’t see the wisdom in living in a mixed monastic community myself, but I would be curious about the experience of those who do! That’s why I spent sometime in Mahayana temples and I found that even there there is a certain measure of separation, and considerable carefulness and tact, whenever monk and nun came in contact. And I think this is ideal, because having no contact at all is also problematic. But it must always be born in mind that in this area one can make no generalisations, the case differ according to the understanding and training of each person.
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@vimalanyani @Cara
I supposed there is a alternative route for most western females whom wants equality and freedom . They can go out on their own to practice without the “Sangha” tag !
You start on living a monastic life without the robes just like when Buddha started his Journey to search for the truth and trains himself without any thing !
You could easily do this in Thailand forest .
Following 8 precepts , white “robes” , and you could go for almsround , I would think you will get all the requisites with no difficulty . You are on your own , no obligations , no gender issues , no more subjugations . Don’t worry as I stayed and practiced meditations in the kanchanaburi forests before .
Just in case , if your determination fails ,
You still can get back to the society whenever you want .
Btw , don’t worry about practise as a laity and attain liberation and dies in 7 days !
That probably not going to happen !
Give it a thought !
You may be the contemporary first female Buddha of the century ! Thereafter , you could give it a start with genderless or mix Sanghas Community or which you think suit best !
Ps. This is not an attack on anyone .
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Thought experiments !!>
Buddha recommended a different kind of thought experiments in “Ariyapariyesana Sutta”
"Good, monks. It’s fitting that you, as sons of good families who have gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should gather for Dhamma discussion. When you have gathered you have two duties: either Dhamma discussion or noble silence.>
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html
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Interestingly, I noted that bio data for member in Sutta Central has a space for gender identification!
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Santi Forest Monastery, a Theravadin monastery in Australia, used to be a mixed monastic community. I heard from a woman who lived there for some years as a layperson and as a nun that there were separate areas, areas for females and for males and also areas for everybody like the meditation hall, the dana sala or the library. And as for her account there were no particular problems that arose out of this.
Also, monastics do meet people of the opposite sex even if they live in a single-male or single-female monastery. Is it more difficult to restrain one’s lustful feelings towards co-monastics than towards laypeople?
And what about monastics who live in a single-male or single-female community and who are gay or bisexual? I know some of these, they were accepted by their communities, and as far as I know this also doesn’t cause specific problems.
But this is only a side issue in this thread. The OP speaks of a genderless vinaya, not necessarily of mixed monastic communities. And neither is a genderless vinaya as described here necessary in order to have a mixed monastic community, as the examples of Santi Forest Monastery and the community Ayya @vimalanyani used to live with show, nor does a genderless vinaya necessarily imply a mixed community.
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Having lived in both mixed and gender-separated communities myself, I always felt that the separated communities were more likely to “go out of balance”, with all sorts of problems and disputes arising all over. To me it seemed that the male and female personalities tended to balance each other out more. There was a greater sense of ease and peace in such communities, and of acceptance of each other’s differences. In separated communities, I have regularly seen a demonizing of the opposite side as “mara’s snare”, to be seen as evil, and to be avoided at all costs. I wonder if sexual desires are actually appropriately dealt with under such circumstances, or if they are just repressed.
As @Sabbamitta has pointed out, there are homo-/bisexuals already in the sangha, and they don’t do worse than straight monastics. There are asexual people. For them, mixed communities might be a good option.
And for many people, lust isn’t the main obstacle on the path. They struggle much more with the opposite, aversion…
Yes, thanks for pointing that out!
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Ayya, from what I’ve heard from the bhikkhus I’ve asked about reasons for their peers disrobing, by far the most common explanation is sexual lust. I haven’t talked to bhikkhunis about this. What would you say is the most common reason for bhikkhunis to disrobe?
I invite other monastics to share their opinions on this question and I or the mods can start a new thread if necessary.
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In my experience, sexual lust doesn’t even make the top 5 reasons. (I was going to say top 10, but that might be an exaggeration…)
By far the most common reasons would be things like lack of material support, no place to stay, hugely oppressive communities, gender discrimination, and similar reasons. Many women find that under such circumstances, it is impossible for them to develop mental peace and that it just further inflames their unwholesome mental tendencies.
As Ayya @Vimala posted above:
If you want to inquire about this further, feel free to start a new thread!
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The problem I was referring to is specific to frequent or consistent contact, an occasion where intimacy (more than lust really) is very likely, whether with a monastic or a lay person. And it’s not a “problem” when this happens; all I was saying is that it happens.
Friend @sabbamitta, the problem is not moral for me, the problem, or challenge, will be faced by one who lives in continual contact with those toward whom they can have carnal emotions. I’m not against it, I’m just pointing out this situation. I only have good wishes and support for any one going forth in any way in any circumstances. Good luck to all, and from my heart.
Well what good is it to envisage a genderless vinaya independently from its possible modes of application? But it’s alright, sorry for steering the discussion aside.
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I definitely understand the reasoning for thinking about this. However, if this were to happen, it would need to be outside of the Theravada traditional as Theravada is basically by definition based on upholding the Vinaya.
I spent some time at Was Pah Nanachat. From the talks by Ajahn Kevali and other monastics, as well as the dhamma talks I’ve listened to over the years, the Vinaya is not to be viewed as oppressive, for either male or female. The Vinaya is a set of protective rules given by the Buddha over time as problems arose in the order. The Buddha created the Vinaya as a way of dealing with the Sangha to ensure concord and that it lasts.
Bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis both use the Vinaya as a way of increasing mindfulness and self regulation/control as the path is all about self control - to abstain from doing unwholesome acts of mind, body or speech and only speak, do and think wholesome things. The Vinaya is the lines on the highway, it keeps the Sangha running smoothly whilst giving a way for monastics to train in nekkhamma, renunciation. Identifying with one gender or another is still ultimately holding to views and clinging to the world. The rules for Bhikkhunis can be viewed as protective of nuns from monks and visa versa.
It is a slippery slope once the basic rules for monastics, male or female are tinkered with. The Sangha and the Dhamma must last the test of time, not only for future progeny, but for us as we take rebirth in the future in some other form, so that we might rediscover the Dhamma in it’s purity and continue to make progress on the eightfold path to Nibbana if we should not attain the final goal in this lifetime.
Ordaining Bhikkhus is not really outside of the Vinaya and this monastery has done a great service to women everywhere in that women can now ordain in the Theravada tradition. Also, nuns offer a different perspective on the Dhamma. I love listening to nuns. There is a beautiful softness in the Dhamma talks from nuns, it can be there from Bhikkhus as well, but women definitely have something unique and wonderful to offer the world and in their way of sharing the Dhamma.
With deep respect.
Ami
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The crucial thing about this statement to me is that it points to the fact that the point of the vinaya was to have practical rules for living in concord. The Buddha enunciated such rules on an ad hoc basis in order to help people in the growing community get along. Many rules will seemingly be conducive to concord for nearly all imaginable kinds of people in early any kinds of places. But there is no reason to think that every single rule he enunciated, to foster concord among the 5th century BCE North Indians he was working with, will make just as much sense in all times and places, and among all kinds of people.
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I think mixed communities will naturally give rise to intimacy and issues of lust. Politics aside, it is obviously going to take place. What I think the issue here, correct me if I am wrong, is the issue of dominance and subjugation. As mentioned earlier in the thread there are places where a Bhikkhuni can ordain (not in Tibet) like CA where these are not issues. Then it becomes more an issue of principles.
It is actually more an issue of gender politics- which is not a bad thing, but rather, progressive. How do we change the ancient vinaya- can it be changed? I have my doubts, though it would be nice if we could.
I think there is a lot to be said for developing a bhikkhuni only ordination where you are free to develop your own vinaya, seeking support from others or sustaining yourselves (its not necessary to depend on supporters if it can be developed from the ground up, but could if you wanted to) and strike out on your own path!
with metta
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I understood that you were saying that this “thing” (whether or not a “problem”) tends to happen more easily in a mixed community than in a separate one. Maybe that’s not what you meant? And that made me think that homosexual people in a separate community might be even more exposed to it than heterosexual ones, even in a mixed community with separate areas.
I probably don’t quite understand what you want to say by this. Being gay or bisexual is in my opinion not a moral issue…
You are certainly right that the two points (genderless vinaya and the question of mixed communities) are closely related. I just wanted to make clear that there is a difference, though. The don’t necessarily go together.
And I hope that what I said didn’t sound to you as a personal criticism. That wasn’t what I intended to do. I too was talking about the “side issue”! 
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@vimalanyani
Dear ayya , I understand you are going for higher ordination , best wishes to you .
According to vinaya , after the ordination you have to stay five years with your preceptor for learning . Nowadays , this thing never really being follows , but , it is up to individual . I have seen many people including samanera and new bhikhhu whom regard themselves as being "under controlled " , subjugated by someone else , and at the end either they find their own place or space or finally disrobes ! Therefore , not only that the females having this situation .
If you find that many “minor” rules where today many seems to disregard , that is something I hope you don’t lightly to abandon . I don’t know you or other people , but as an ex samanera nearly for a year , I served and running around helping nearly everything in the temple and learned quite a lot from it . I bowed to a new bhikhhu whom are much younger than me . I was ordered around by senior samaneras and bhikhkhus , from sweeping the floors cleaning the halls , washing toilets , washing the robes , serving the seniors etc , you name it . Don’t think it as an oppressions !
Life in the monastery with a strict vinaya being upholds is very beneficial and conducive for trainings in the dhamma . These things about vinaya is difficult for everyone to uphold .
If you do find the “minor” rules are unrelated to your trainings , that is totally up to you . However , the whole thing about vinaya was laid down by an Enlightened Buddha himself , and I would think , unless if you are capable of attaining Liberation or get enlightened , otherwise , bear in mind that you are trying to do something according to your defiles mind in which will change the whole of the vinaya and dhamma which you should be very very careful !
I would think you are a very intelligent and capable person in many aspects , but , the trainings as a laity and in monastic lifestyle is not the same thing . Don’t bring all your mundane mentality into the life of a renunciate , that will prevent you from attaining Liberation . All the things you have talked about may become your own barriers and obstacles to your trainings .
I have seen many intelligent bhikkhus disrobes either because of desires , or they can’t live under others . Because they have too much views and prouds in the mind . When we are too intelligent we will tend to loose hold of our self as conceit take holds . There were many intelligent bhikkhus with many (10/20/30) rains retreats regressed in the trainings after they became famous and too much social activities .
Anyway , I could be wrong as well , but , did not the Buddha set the rules that allow females to Ordain Once only in a life time , that is a very limited chance to practise . If you think it in terms of equality , that according to today view is not democratic .
All the best to you . Smooth and safe journey to your ordination destination .
Ps. There was an old monk gave me an advice , the minor rules helps one to develop humility and khanti as well .
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I’m going to start the desert tradition (as opposed to forest tradition) sometime in the future! It will be a monastery in the great desert tradition so this means there will be little chance for talking in the first place! Aggressive “Silence” signs will be everywhere, with the image of the “Queen of Hearts” screaming it out tyrannically!
One vinaya for all residents irrespective of gender. And people will live there like anagamis. But … I will rule that thing with an iron fist and the reach of my aversion, cruelty, and wrath, will not discriminate between genders! 
so you see what I mean, even with a perfect vinaya, it’s all about who is in control of reality.
You got to approach this whole issue from above, not from the same level. From above and from far away also. Not thinking ‘I am’ man or woman, subjugated or free. No one is free, and no one enjoys subjugating others including those who indulge in subjugating others!
And I’m not interested in a suffering-free monastic experience you make a perfect sangha, I’m not interested! Cuz I’m done with spending time fighting off suffering. There is no suffering!
The maximum possible extent of contentment!
Oh no of course not! You generally shouldn’t worry about this with me because I don’t take anything personally, including a personal attack! 
it is sunny and the breeze is cool, and nothing is personal, unless there is a soul, and there ain’t. 
And thanks for ayya @vimalanyani for starting this interesting discussion.
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