The authority of samsara is the power generated by opposite polarities beginning with, but not confined to birth/death:
“That’s how it is when living together in the world. That’s how it is when gaining a personal identity. When there is living in the world, when there is the gaining of a personal identity, these eight worldly conditions spin after the world, and the world spins after these eight worldly conditions: gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain.”
—Anguttara Nikaya 4.192
Therefore skillful use of opposite polarites such as calm/insight is the only option for reaching the unconditioned.
“Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?”
“The noble eightfold path is fabricated.”
—Majjhima nikaya 44
Samsara must be understood in order to appreciate the authority of the release from it.
On who’s authority would a Sotapanna speak, indeed the Blessed One is rightly self awakened? He has confirmed for himself that indeed ‘tanha’ is the Samudaya Sacca and so forth. Not in such words, experientially, I mean.
Still, I don’t think he expects anyone to take his word for it.
PS: I am not sure that I have understood your question correctly.
Thanks all for your time. I have tried to not rush my response and consider all that had been said.
I found MN100 quite interesting. It is apparent that the Buddha became enlightened through some sort of vision of things not normally seen by human eyes:
”thus with heavenly eyesight which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, well-behaved and ill-behaved; I understood how beings pass on according to their kammas."
I would suppose that it was this knowledge that have him confidence and from that confidence, he acted with authority.
Thankyou for sending this on. I understand that the Buddha did not learn from another, but it came from a vision of things unseen. It was from this experience that he spoke. His confidence in what he saw gave him ‘self-authority’. The vision changed the way he perceived this world and everything else stems from this.
Interesting, thanks for sharing. What I read in what you quote/write is that we should desire perfection (as manifest in a prosperous city). The path to this perfection is living a perfect life (with all the ‘rights’). This perfection is the only path out of the life/death cycle.
I may have got it completely wrong, but I think I understand.
From what I understand, if we profess to know the truth then there must be a basis from which we speak. Without this basis, then our message has no power or authority.
I have no authority of my own in spiritual matters, hence I seek the one with knowledge/authority so that I might follow them!
No, this vision just proves the action of kamma. It will be noticed that after the description of concentration, there is a further passage describing the attainment of the four noble truths through insight. This is the actual awakening:
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that ‘This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress… These are mental fermentations… This is the origination of fermentations… This is the cessation of fermentations… This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.’
—Majjhima Nikaya 27
Bikkhu Bodhi is currently conducting a monthly online course in the sequential training described in this sutta.
The most recent talk will be publicly available in due course:
August 26:Paths to Liberation in Early Buddhism, Lecture no. 4
The sequential training–part 3 (Majjhima Nikaya 27)
This talk will cover the final sections of the sequential training according to the Sutta on the Elephant’s Footprint: the recollection of past lives, the divine eye, and the knowledge of liberation.
The destination could be said to be ‘perfect’ - or ‘unconditioned’ in Buddhist speak, but the path to the unconditioned is ‘conditioned’ -specifically by things such as the teachings of the Buddha in the case of those who follow them/him. By definition the conditioned (which includes things like language) will be imperfect, but for our use it is good enough.
To “desire perfection” in this case would be an oxymoron and it would ultimately be seen as working against the path as it is ‘desire’ that keeps us in this cyclical mess. Once we get a handle on the path (all the ‘rights’), we see that it is a gradual path of more and more refined levels of ‘letting go’ (letting things be, calming down) rather than the way we usually operate which is desiring and getting (or in it’s negative form - despising and pushing away). Having said that we do need to use desire to get on the path.
There’s a pair of lovely little booklets on what keeps us in the life/death cycle and how to get out by Ajahn Brahmali
In Sweden that have a lovely way of getting things done as a group. They chant together with the breath while unifying physical exertion: “oh hey, oh ho!” Hey ho indeed brother.
@paul1 - you talk of insight - and it raises another interesting side track. To the human perception, insight may appear to come from an entirely new thought, but this would assume that some knowledge did not exist before we thought of it.
To my thinking, if we exist in an infinite existence (where the past, present and future all exist in the finite, but are also merged into one in the infinite), I cannot boast about any good I do or any creative thought I have because they already existed before I thought of it. Therefore I use the word ‘revelation’ as I think it better describes the process of discovering rather than inventing or creating. It is the reason I have great difficulty with the Nobel prizes. They give all of the credit to the person who found something (taking credit for it) when the real credit should be to all creation.
@stu - it is somewhat paradoxical to not desire anything - and I think you point to it in your desire to live the four noble truths. In my limited experience, I desire to get up out of bed in the morning because I am filled with the joy of another beautiful sunrise. I desire to live a life of thankfulness, not taking anything for granted. I would suggest that desire is not the problem - but the problem is the object of our desire. I know the harm that comes from desiring my own pleasures above anothers.
@Meggers - thank you for your extra special effort. I can’t pretend to understand it all, but it did help crystallise my thoughts. I was particularly interested in the concept of ‘true authority’ and ‘ultimate reality’.
I currently understand that there are two types of authority (please forgive my coarse generalisations in advance). Firstly, authority that is given by people. Say for example, a king or another type of ruler. But this is just temporary authority that is transferred from one to another. Then there is a second type of authority that is invisible without insight. Another reality in which things exist in eternity, not bound by the rules of finite beings as we are. Perhaps true authority and ultimate reality are found there.
Yes, it is fair to make a simple division between political and religious authority. Sometimes political authority can come from religious authority, sometimes religious authority can come from political authority. Sometimes they are “kept” separate. It is also fair to classify this simple view as considering “worldly” authority. Right, we’re speaking in very rough terms.
In some situations people do appeal to other worldly authority. Christians for instance. I lived on an island off the coast of Nagasaki, famous for its hidden Christians. There was a point when Christianity was outlawed from Japan, because different Catholic orders brought political disputes to Japan, and to the Shogun. He became irritated and said no more foreigners, no more Christians. But Nagasaki had a lot of people who had been converted by the Jesuits and God was their highest authority (highest good actually). So they resisted, and they were martyred, just like the Christians in early Rome. Crucified, tortured, you name it. But they prevailed. The hidden Christians on my island, (and a few others off the coast of Nagasaki and Kumamoto) only emerged into the Japanese eye in the 1970s. They’re considered very exotic in Japan. I was lucky Tokyo posted me where they did. So I think that is an example of what you are talking about.
In terms of Buddhism, well … for instance … the Dalai Lama did come forward recently and say, “we follow Buddha and there are many Chinese in China who follow Buddha” in response to the Chinese government destroying a statue. That is a very complicated issue, but I think the Dalai Lama understood that the Chinese government’s destructive gesture was designed to shame, dismay and dishearten the Tibetans. The Dalai Lama appealed to many authorities higher than might, but definitely did stand up for his faith. What his view is on ultimate reality. I think you’d have to ask him. I think he would give you a very good answer.
I too usually like a lovely sunrise - springing out of bed to greet the day. But if I recall just last summer, there was a week or two where due to climate change a ‘beautiful’ sunrise without a cloud in the sky heralded the dread of more fires, the butane gas tank blowing and potential loss of life close by to where I was staying. I longed for the cool of evening where I could rest before the next days potential problems.
“In this world there are only two tragedies. One is not getting what one wants, and the other is getting it.”
— Oscar Wilde
Ultimately I think ‘desire’ is a problem – if we want things to be a certain way, we are bound to be disappointed on occasion when things don’t go according to plan. For example, if you fail to “live a life of thankfulness, not taking anything for granted”, then it is quite possible you will feel ashamed of yourself if/when you fail (if you are mindful enough to notice the failure). That hiri and ottappa is a wholesome response, but it’s still unpleasant and can be a cause of much sadness. But you are very right – initially it is getting a strong practice together where we are agile and we can protect both ourselves and others from our more crude desires for things, and for things to be a certain way.
The Buddha gives some nice guidance in sn47.19
And how do you look after others by looking after yourself? By development, cultivation, and practice of meditation. And how do you look after yourself by looking after others? By acceptance, harmlessness, love, and sympathy.
@stu - I am not as adept at you with the quoting, I am typing on my phone, but I will try and give you the gist.
Is it not good to desire positive change in our lives that leads to the harmlessness you talk about? I understand that acceptance, harmlessness, love and sympathy are beautiful things, but all these things are desires of a sort.
I read in another forum post that the Buddha desired to relieve the pain in his back by lying on the floor. Should we have expected him to endure terrible pain because it was wrong to desire relief?
But on thankfulness and other things, I read your article and was intrigued by the concepts of fear and shame as motivation. Reflecting on my initial topic of power and authority, it is true that the reason we follow authority is because we fear falling on the wrong side of them. And we should be ashamed of how we act because we fall short of what we need to do. But whilst I live in an imperfect world, I too am (and will always be) imperfect. I believe there is great wisdom in saying that ‘innocence, once lost, can never be regained’. Does that mean that we are destined to always live in fear and shame?
My thankfulness is unconditional because my hope is not in something I did (or could ever do).
The way i see it, here is where he got his authority…
At the end of the (sn56.11) Dhammacakkaappattana sutta…
And when the Buddha rolled forth the Wheel of Dhamma, the earth gods raised the cry: “Near Varanasi, in the deer park at Isipatana, the Buddha has rolled forth the supreme Wheel of Dhamma. And that wheel cannot be rolled back by any ascetic or brahmin or god or Māra or Brahmā or by anyone in the world.”
Hearing the cry of the Earth Gods, the Gods of the Four Great Kings … the Gods of the Thirty-Three … the Gods of Yama … the Joyful Gods … the Gods Who Love to Create … the Gods Who Control the Creations of Others … the Gods of Brahmā’s Host raised the cry: “Near Varanasi, in the deer park at Isipatana, the Buddha has rolled forth the supreme Wheel of Dhamma. And that wheel cannot be rolled back by any ascetic or brahmin or god or Māra or Brahmā or by anyone in the world.”
And so at that moment, in that instant, the cry soared up to the Brahmā realm. And this galaxy shook and rocked and trembled. And an immeasurable, magnificent light appeared in the world, surpassing the glory of the gods.
Then the Buddha expressed this heartfelt sentiment: “Koṇḍañña has really understood! Koṇḍañña has really understood!”
And that’s how Venerable Koṇḍañña came to be known as “Koṇḍañña Who Understood”.
Sure. Wholesome desires are good; no desires are better.
Once you have acquired a body and a mind, you are going to suffer; once you are born you will get old-age (if you’re lucky), sickness and death. That’s the nature of things and discussed in the section 2 of the Dependant Origination booklet I linked to above. But of course we do want to relieve what pain we have once we are born so that we can carry out the tasks in hand. In my case that would be the ending of all future rebirths – in the case of the Buddha, that would be training others to end all future rebirths.
Yes, back to the topic! Nice. This reminded me of the famous Kālāma sutta – AN3.65 (it’s surprising that this sutta hasn’t already come up already in this thread – maybe I missed it) where the Buddha suggests a number of criteria to use as ‘authority’ which includes doing things that are praised by sensible people and giving up things that are criticised by sensible people, but that does beg the question as to how we are to make the judgement of who is sensible and who isn’t:
But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are unskillful, blameworthy, criticized by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to harm and suffering’, then you should give them up.
…
But when you know for yourselves: ‘These things are skillful, blameless, praised by sensible people, and when you undertake them, they lead to welfare and happiness’, then you should acquire them and keep them.
I think that the Buddha (of the EBTs) thinks almost the opposite to you. While he can see very far into the his past lives, he can’t see so far back into the past where there was a start of saṁsāra – the cycle of rebirth – so for the purposes of the Buddha there was never a time of innocence which was then lost. But he suggests he can see is an end to saṁsāra which I guess would be the equivalent of innocence regained. Further he thinks that he has rediscovered a (maybe the) way out of saṁsāra and that there are some others that are capable of learning it, hence his decision to teach. So, no, I don’t think that we are destined to always live in fear and shame from the Buddhas perspective.
I don’t know if he ever claimed to speak on any authority, but I’d say he spoke on the authority of the Dhamma—which you can to, when you know and see it.
Yes, back to the topic! Nice. This reminded me of the famous Kālāma sutta – AN3.65 (it’s surprising that this sutta hasn’t already come up already in this thread – maybe I missed it) where the Buddha suggests a number of criteria to use as ‘authority’ which includes doing things that are praised by sensible people and giving up things that are criticised by sensible people, but that does beg the question as to how we are to make the judgement of who is sensible and who isn’t: