Three discriminations in Suttas and Abhidhamma

Q & A
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In footnote 37 from the Devatāsamyutta in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation of SN he mentions that in Vibh 389-90 the three discriminations (better than, worse than, equal to) “become ninefold in so far as each triad may be entertained by one who is truly better, truly equal, or truly worse”.

  1. I’m really unfamiliar with the Abhidamma texts and their citation, can anyone help me find this passage here online so I can look at that text?

  2. I would also be interested in having that ninefold set of distinctions involving mana unpacked further for me – what makes someone “truly” worse, better or equal? – maybe this is clearer in the text? I’m guessing it probably has to do with realization, but I’m interested to hear more about how this is interpreted.

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Hi Erica,

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In this English translation of the Vibhaṅga (The Book of Analysis) by Ven. Sayadaw Thittila, the matter is explained in detail on pages 459–463. Best wishes in Dhamma.

Thittila; The Book of Analysis.pdf (19.5 MB).

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Oh – this is totally different than what I had thought – I see – it’s a real breakdown of all the possible psychological positions in great detail, which is great – I’m not well-versed in the Abhidamma, as I said, but this seems characteristic of the kinds of approach I’ve seen in various snippets from it – lovely, thank you so much again!

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Thank you so much!!!

Erica

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Namo Buddhaya!

You can find digitalized version of this book on this site.

It is for example when an ordinary person, in his general bewilderment, would think an ariya to be his inferior. This woud not only constitute conceit but also be contrary to truth.

On the other hand if an ariyan would think himself better than the common person, this too is his comparing of brands and a waving of flag, pride, but he is at least making the correct judgement in who is the superior person.

If i recall correctly, the sutta say there is no more equality than is when one compares a pair of arahants or a pair of anagamis and so on

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There is a note to this because the sutta method has an important phrase “working for perfection”

So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery.

Then Venerable Saviṭṭha and Venerable Mahākoṭṭhita went up to Venerable Sāriputta, and exchanged greetings with him.

When the greetings and polite conversation were over, they sat down to one side and Venerable Sāriputta said to Venerable Saviṭṭha, “Reverend Saviṭṭha, these three people are found in the world. What three? The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, who do you believe to be the finest?”

“Reverend Sāriputta, these three people are found in the world. What three? The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, I believe the person freed by faith to be finest. Why is that? Because this person’s faculty of faith is outstanding.”

Then Sāriputta said to Mahākoṭṭhita, “Reverend Koṭṭhika, these three people are found in the world. What three? The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, who do you believe to be the finest?”

“Reverend Sāriputta, these three people are found in the world. What three? The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, I believe the direct witness to be finest. Why is that? Because this person’s faculty of immersion is outstanding.”

Then Mahākoṭṭhita said to Sāriputta, “Reverend Sāriputta, these three people are found in the world. What three? The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, who do you believe to be the finest?”

“Reverend Koṭṭhika, these three people are found in the world. What three? The direct witness, the one attained to view, and the one freed by faith. These are the three people found in the world. Of these three people, I believe the person attained to view to be finest. Why is that? Because this person’s faculty of wisdom is outstanding.”

Then Sāriputta said to Saviṭṭha and Mahākoṭṭhita, “Each of us has spoken from the heart. Come, reverends, let’s go to the Buddha, and tell him about this. As he answers, so we’ll remember it.”

“Yes, reverend,” they replied. Then Sāriputta, Saviṭṭha, and Mahākoṭṭhita went up to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. Then Sāriputta told the Buddha of all they had discussed.

“In this matter, Sāriputta, it’s not easy to categorically declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, a person who is freed by faith is practicing for perfection, while the direct witness and the one attained to view are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to categorically declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, a direct witness is practicing for perfection, while the one freed by faith and the one attained to view are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to categorically declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, one attained to view is practicing for perfection, while the one freed by faith and the direct witness are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to categorically declare that one of these three people is finest.”

SuttaCentral

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So are the suttas asserting that 1) an arahant is superior to an anagami and 2) 2 arahants or 2 anagamis are equal? Or is that question really outside the scope of relevance for the concept of self-conceit because neither arahants nor anagamis would believe in self-conceit and an arahant would have abandoned all conceit?

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Arahant > anagami > sakidagami > sotapanna > anussaris > puthujjana

Arahant > bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith > anussaris > puthujjana

Anagami level bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith > sakidagami level bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith but not if the sakidagami practices for perfection.

Anagami level bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith > sotapanna level bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith but not if the sotapanna practices for perfection.

Sakidagami level bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith > sotapanna level level bodily witness or one attained to view or one liberated by faith but not if the sotapanna practices for perfection.

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The arahant can still think ‘I am an arahant’ if they want to. Whereas everyone else is prone to this happening involuntarily due to conceit & lapses in concentration.

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From the beginning, your direction of interest, as stated in question wasn’t very proper, if your aim is to understand Dhamma.

You should rather focus your attention on why these discriminations aren’t valid, in the eyes of ariya.
And they aren’t valid, since they take for granted that “I am”. And when I am, if I compare myself to someone else, let’s say my chess skills, I can be better - than average chess player, have more or less equal strength with another chess master, or be worse player than Kasparov.

In this sense when I make such value judgement I am perfectly right on certain level, since on that level I describe things as they are.

But if my aim is to realize nibbana, cessation of being which is synonymous with cessation of conceit “I am”, I have already want in the wrong direction, since I left concept “I am” unexamined and identify myself with my chess skills. Chess skills are of course no problem here, but on the first place I should abandon idea: I am a chessplayer.

And so discrimination between arahat and sotāpanna is quite valid objectively, since qualities of arahat are much higher and sublime than that of sotāpanna. But arahat doesn’t think “I am better than sotāpanna”, - since “he” doesn’t think “I am”*,and if certain individual, puggala think “I am sotāpanna” he may merely classifiy his understanding of Dhamma as being on the level of sotāpanna, or most likely is deluded, and do not understand Dhamma at all.

  • For this you should investigate Suttas MN 22, or Yamaka Sutta
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Thank you. I am familiar with the stages of awakening, but I think I framed the question poorly because I was coming at it briefly from my understanding of emptiness philosophy and trying to figure out whether there was also some kind of implication that on an absolute level even value distinctions between the stages break down because of their duality – I forgot for a second that we were talking about Early Buddhism!

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Caesar aptly defined what ambition is all about when he said: ‘Better to be first in the village than the second in Rome!’ I’m nothing in the village and nothing in any Rome. The corner grocer is at least respected from the Rua da Assunção to the Rua da Vitória; he’s the Caesar of a square city block. Me superior to him? In what, if nothingness admits neither superiority nor inferiority, nor even comparison?
Fernando Pessoa

Is it Early Buddhism? :smiling_face:

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Hmmm – how about this? Is this Early Buddhism?

Beyond the bend in the road
by Fernando Pêssoa

Beyond the bend in the road
there may be a well, a castle.
There may be simply more road.
I neither know nor ask.
As long as I’m on the road before the bend
I simply look at the road before the bend,
since I can see only the road before the bend.
It would do no good to look elsewhere
or at what I can’t see.
Let’s just concentrate on where we are.
There’s beauty enough in being here, not elsewhere.
If anyone’s there beyond the bend in the road,
let them worry about what’s beyond the bend in the road.
That is the road, to them.
If we arrive there when we arrive we’ll know.
Now we only know that we’re not there.
Here there’s only the road before the bend, and before the bend
there’s the road with no bend at all.

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Why would one ask if something written by a 20th century Portuguese author was an early Buddhist text?

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What you’re seeing is a bit of playfulness: the first Pessoa quotation posted by knigarian is an elaboration of the concept of mana, so I posted a Pessoa poem that’s a lovely explication of practicing with sati. Pessoa was not technically an Early Buddhist, but wrote a lot of lovely mystical poetry that resonates with EB contemplative practice sometimes.

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Just a gentle reminder that Question and Answer category is for topics which are focused enough so that you are looking for specific answers. Generally just one question and picking one of the post as “solution”. This thread has progressed more like a discussion so it might be better off in the Discussions or Watercooler category.

:pray:t5:

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Probably can be moved to “Could be Buddhist”… category.