Truly Exist, dependently exist, dependently ceased, truly not existing

[NgXinZhao]

@Puerh

Because this reason the Suttas explain how in nibbana the aggregates “have no footing”, “cannot be found” and etcetera. It doesn’t mean the aggregates are destroyed. It is the atta experience caused by the clinging to the aggregates what is destroyed.

Sounds to me that the aggregates cannot be destroyed is akin to putting them into 1. And just the perception that they are not 1 is removed.

So your framework is that the 5 aggregates, starting from 2, goes into 1 or maybe 5 which is basically the same, just that 5 denies that it is a self, despite being permanent and existing. So any apparent death of arahants is just 2 finally disappearing and they all goes into 5. Never changing, but still can go to other worlds to teach? Totally contradictory already.

Only 2 has the characteristics of change by switching to 3 and 2 back and forth. Only in change can we say arahants can teach.

@Puerh

Why do you think that activity of the arhants must be stopped at death after leaving the physical body?. It wouldn’t be just one more time in where they leaved their physical bodies?. Where is the difference?.

After dependent cessation link of ignorance, craving, clinging ends at arahanthood, the consciousness and name and form mutually support each other for the arahant to not go poof disappear after enlightenment while alive. This mutual support only ends at death. After which there being no other links in dependent origination anymore, no causes, all dependent cessation links happens and no more process to cease. The end.

To posit there’s an arahant which can leave the physical body is to posit a soul. There being no more mind or matter. Arahants have ended rebirth. If there’s another existence or something after parinibbāna for the arahant, it’s yet another rebirth and that just means that being is not an arahant.

@Puerh

Do you think the Buddha and arhants had a wish for existence when leaved their physical bodies to do that activity?. Do you agree that they used a -self and appearance in those realms, without falling into birth and existence?

No idea what this is about. No soul to speak of for Buddhas and arahants to leave their body, no mind also.

@Puerh

Is there any pause in the 3 possible acquisition of -self?. When death is not any stop for these acquisitions, What are the consequences of nibbana/parinibbana arising at any moment (alive or death) among that constant production of the Realities associated to those -self acquisitions?.

I think it’s explained by the 2 step process of how dependent cessation happens. Also you didn’t say what are the 3 acquisition of self.

@Puerh

Do you think the acquisition of -self arising after death and its associated experienced reality at those moments, both would be destroyed if there is nibbana there?. In such case, Why the Reality and the world was not destroyed at the moment of the Buddha Enlightenment?. Where is the difference?

Explained by the 2 step dependent cessation as above.

Oh do you mean -self to be no self?

There’s never been any self. So no self is not acquired. It’s realized.

@Puerh

What’s the real meaning of phrases like “end of existences” or “not falling into existence”?.
Maybe is this referred to what the Suttas shows in the life of the Buddha and arhants while being in this world and also other worlds?.

After death of arahants, 2 goes to 3, and doesn’t arise ever again.

@Puerh

Do you accept that such activity was carried with a perpetual freedom of dukkha, and freedom from the Wheel without falling into birth and existence, and without requesting the annihilation of the Wheel?. Or maybe do you think that they had ignorance because they were not abiding in a perpetual mystical state named “nibbana-nothingness”?. Note they were able to do that, although they also were interacting with other beings in other realms and worlds.
What is your explanation for their apparent rejection to be “extinguished” into a nibbana-nothingness?

I think you’re asking confusing questions because you refuse to acknowledge that there’s a difference between nibbāna with remainder with Nibbāna without remainder. The remainder is the 5 aggregates for the arahant while still alive. That remainder is dukkha (but dukka without mental suffering). You don’t accept this despite so many people telling you so, in here and in other forum. If you wish to debate this, please make another new topic for it. Your conception of dukkha is always with mental suffering, so you’re stuck there until you’re willing to see beyond this.

@Puerh

– Finally, Can you quote the Sutta in where Parinibbana is explained like the destruction of the aggregates and annihilation of Reality?

AN4.173, 6 sense contact ceases without anything leftover.

@Puerh

In many places the word “cease” in the Buddha teaching is referred to the cease of atta. I suppose we agree in this point. The anatta characteristic of the Reality cannot be destroyed. Because anatta is the result from the Cease.

I disagree. This is sloppy language. Not self is always been the case. What you mean to cease is the delusion of self (ignorance, conceit, self view). All of them are also not self. Not self is the basic character of all dhammas, it is not a resultant of anything.

@Puerh

Note how every time you writes “things arise, things cease” you are meaning “exists, no exists”.

I already put into the 4 framework out there, so if you really still insist on saying I means 1 and 4 when I say 2 and 3, that is on you.

@Puerh

Aggregates cannot be destroyed but these are missed like the source of atta realities when there is non-clinging to atta delusion.
Aggregate of form is cohesion, solidity, heat and movement. These are no things but something closer to the notion of energy. And this cannot be destroyed.

The form is left as a corpse, unless you wish to identify the relics itself is still the arahant remaining, then you should agree that there’s no form left for the arahant. As the relics is also impermanent, but parinibbāna is not impermanent, we couldn’t identify the relics as the arahant himself.

The mind is not subjected to mass energy conservation law, or else you’re just pulling in physicalism onto the mind. The mind completely ceases at parinibbāna. 2 to become 3. And never arises again. Impossible to arise again. No causes to arise again. So it might as well be 4.

@yeshe.tenley this is an example of real disagreement.