Agree, perhaps this is another topic.
This statement is incorrect I think.
Jhana (Samadhi) is a salient factor in Nobel Eightfold Path.
I think that even hearing about or reading about jhana can have the effect of changing our behavior (as it relates to pursuing sensual pleasures). We may be inspired to practice meditation or study the Dhamma, rather than go out partying or whatever - despite never having experienced jhana ourselves. Although one may not yet be an Anigami (having eradicated sense desire and ill will), nor even attained deep concentration, if there is sufficient faith and interest in that direction then we already have a pretty powerful antidote to sensual temptations. We no longer believe that sensuality can offer the highest happiness, and we see the danger and the drawbacks there…This is all very good, as it should be - but it doesn’t mean we have attained jhana (maybe you actually have, I’m just speaking in hypotheticals of course)…But I do see your point, and I agree with the spirit of it.
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Dear Christopher
I didn’t mean to challenge you at all.
Anyway your reply is very beautiful.
Thanks for it.
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I agree samadhi is key . samadhi is the end result of developing the 1st seven factors of the 8FP.
Until we have progressed enough in removing the DADs (unecessary Desires, Aversions/fears/ill-will, Delusions) then jhana is not likely to occur because the first two DADs are also the first two hindrances and if the hindrances are not suppressed (temporarily while meditating) then no jhana.
If Jhana happens already at stage 1 or 2, good on the practitioner who is lucky to have sensual desires and ill-will under control that early in his/her development.
My statement was not well formulated; I should have said “Jhana is not very likely to occur until between stage 2 and 3”.
Maybe there’s a rhetorical oversimplification here, but the non-sensual sukha of jhāna does not, on it’s own, take one to the end of dukkha, other than temporarily and relatively. True, on the other hand, it is a kind of fore-taste of the sukha of total release, and reflective insight into the experience of jhāna, after the fact, can be an important insight practice.
As Mahasi Sayadaw points out, attainment of any stage of awakening requires the highest degree of concentration, be it from the practice and mastery of either appanā-samādhi ( jhāna) or vipassanā khaṇika samādhi, which at that degree of mastery is equivalent in intensity to the former. As Ayya Khema famously noted, such a degree of concentration is a necessary condition for awakening, but not in itself sufficient – it’s integral partnership with insight is what does the job. Attainments as far as full awakening are possible without explicit jhanic absorption, but not with samādhi of equivalent intensity.
A key problem with this “Turing test”, and statements such as “low quality first jhana where it’s barely distinguishable from ordinary worldly relaxation and bodily comfort”, is that, as practiced and taught by monastics thoroughly embodying the tradition (where often allowance to even teach is contingent upon at least 2 decades of dedicated practice), there is no question, no fuzziness as to attainment of appanā-samādhi jhāna. It’s a vividly unmistakable mental shift of mode, a fixation that enhances clarity while disabling mental reactivity.
Common contemporary talk of not really knowing whether one has reached jhāna or not reflects a lack of proper training. The idea that jhāna is not so special, and should be easy to get on one’s own is more a function of Western modernist conceit, and related to the s/t subtle but at times explicit notion that leadership and embodiment of the Buddha’s tradition is passing from the monastic tradition to that of non-renunciate lay teachers.
While the EBT idea has crucial value in understanding the historical evolution of interpretation of the Buddha’s teachings, the idea that Theravāda tradition has contradicted, redefined those teachings is likewise more rhetorical than substantive. The authors of the abhidhamma and commentarial tradition, by and large, were every bit as cognizant and immersed in understanding of the suttanta as any modernist lay commentator.
An interesting anecdote: The well-known teacher Leigh Brasington has recounted that, after a couple of decades of his own work with jhana concentration, beginning with training by Ayya Khema, as he was attending a three-month retreat with the Pa Auk Sayadaw (ca. 2011 or 2013?), Leigh, for the first time, experienced, vividly understood the phenomenon of being clothed, head to foot, in white cloth (a key suttanta description of 4th jhāna).
While I have no doubt as to the depth of his skills and worthiness of his intentions, the attempt to make jhāna “more accessible” for lay practitioners, leads his teaching into s/w paradoxically misleading assertions. For instance, in a week-long retreat with him (and Gil Fronsdal), he denied that absorption is a necessary aspect of jhāna, although his teacher Ayya Khema emphatically states the opposite. And he often indulges in rhetoric to the effect that the Visuddhimagga “got it totally wrong”.
All this attempt to assert modern authority by interpreting radical shifts, contradictions in the evolution of Theravada tradition might be more just an attention-getting mechanism.
As the Pa Auk Sayadaw put it (in Richard Shankman’s book “The Experience of Samādhi”, page 174):
“One reason there is disagreement about jhāna is because people do not understand the Pali texts well. According to our Therevāda tradition, jhāna practice if explained clearly in the Visuddhimagga, the Path of Purification. People should trace back to the original suttas, the original commentaries and subcommentaries, and then to the Visuddhimagga, and only then will they understand the meanings.
“Although jhāna practice if described clearly in the Visuddhimagga, it is very brief and concise on some points. Because of this, there are certain points they may not understand well, especially the signs of concentration, nimitta, and how to do jhāna practice. This is why they should study the suttas and the commentaries, too.”
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That’s a fair point, and I’m not advocating one should strive for a low quality first jhana.
The main point I am shooting for is when one follows Vism. and THOX (theravada orthodox) model of redefined jhana, it’s qualitatively a different, significantly different than the EBT jhana system.
In this thread I quote from Abhidhamma, KN Peta, with relevant passages.
Someone could be ordained for 500 years, practicing 500 years of THOX redefined jhana, but it’s still different from EBT jhana. I’ve taken great pains to do an audited pali and english, often broken down to word by word correspondence the relevant passages, and I encourage people who really want to know, examine the passages yourselves. There is no appana samadhi, no access concentration in EBT jhana. Perhaps one thinks THOX samadhi training system is better. That’s fine. But there should be no delusion that THOX redefined jhana is simply a more detailed explanation of EBT jhana.
And when they study the suttas and commentaries and subcommentaries carefully, they find there are staggeringly huge contradictions on important doctrinal points of practical importance. Take one example, the understanding of kāya in in samma samadhi jhana.
AN 5.28, which contains the 4 jhana similes is probably one of the most unequivocal jpassages on the body being anatomical body of flesh and blood.
Even the THOX commentary agrees:
Why does Vism. Not talk about the famous 4 jhāna similes?
AN 5.28 commentary
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That the EBT descriptions are less detailed (and are actually not entirely consistent) is not proof of qualitative or significant difference. Your interpretation seemed motivated to find and emphasize differences, as you’ve s/t asserted, contradictions. This is not uncommon in modernist analyses, for instance the theory of “sutta-jhana” detailed by Bucknell, Stuart-Fox and Griffiths contains major patent biased assumptions that condition their findings.
Bringing up the issue of kaya is further indication of an interpretive bias, as that topic has been discussed at great length (in SuttaCentral, DhammWheel and probably elsewhere) with no definitive proof of either the “physical” or the phenomenological grouping forms of interpretation. One point rarely mentioned is the glaring fact that the “physical” body is a relatively modern scientific concept, and in Western thought related to the “mind-body” problem which goes back only a few hundred years. By definition, the objective or scientific body is experienced only by external (“objective”) observation, can not be subjectively experienced. Even with an intensive body-scan and “whole body awareness”, who can experience directly the status of their gall bladder, cuticle on the left fourth toe, the cardiac sphincter, the subscapularis muscle, etc. and all together vividly. Direct “bodily” experience can be only phenomenological, i.e. as sensations arising (function of the nervous system), as accessible by the proprioceptive nervous system, and limited to the scope of conscious focus – that is, the whole of what’s in the focal field of attention comprises the “whole body” in awareness at that moment. It’s conceptually very much along the lines of “a body of phenomena” fabricated by the mind into conceptual unity, and along the lines of deconstruction of phenomenal experience into the classes of khandha or elements (dhatu - earth, air, fire, water as sensate characteristics).
One bit of evidence that there’s commonality in the experience of jhana across the various (serious) interpretations is that from the perspective of knowing “hard” jhana, as in, say, Pa Auk Sayadaw training, other forms of describing (and experiencing) true jhanic states are readily accessible, understandable and available to experience. (“True” meaning genuine absorptive jhana rather than intense raptures of piti or other emotions that are often mistaken for jhana.) On the other hand proponents of “soft” jhana-s often resort to dismissing the forms beyond their experience as extreme, as accessible only to special people or by virtue of extraordinarily difficult training.
As it does appear that you prefer the methodology of finding contradiction, interpreting lack of detailed comprehensiveness as “hiding something”, etc. – so obviously intentionally conditioned. You’ve every right to interpret so. Asserting that others must agree or be delusional, however, gets a bit aggressive. A thicket of views is just that; recognizing and rising above it is among the most central of the EBT (e.g. as in the Aṭṭhakavagga).
from MN 62:
Sāriputta tells him to practice ānā-pānas-sati
Ven. Sāriputta {saw} Ven. Rāhula (at a) certain tree-root sitting. cross-leg-posture (he was) bent-into, straightened body he-aspired-to, near-the-mouth, mindfulness (he had) established. On-seeing Ven. Rāhula, addressed (him) - "{Rāhula}, in-breath (and) out-breath mindfulness, (this) meditation you-(should)-meditate (with). {Rāhula}, in-breath (and) out-breath mindfulness, (this) meditation, (when) developed (and) pursued, {is} of-great-fruit {****} of-great-benefit." Then *** Ven. Rāhula, (in the) late-afternoon-time, (from his) seclusion (he) emerged, **** (to) the-Blessed-One (he) approached; having-approached the-Blessed-One, (he) bowed-down, (at) one-side (he) sat. (at) one side sitting *** Venerable Rāhula {said-this} (to) The-Blessed-One - "{Lord}, How (do I) develop ** ***, *****, in-breathing-(and)-out-breathing-mindfulness, how (do I) pursue (it), {to be} of-great-fruit ****, great-benefit?" 1. Earth-property
Any thing, ******, internal, within oneself, (that's) hard, solid, & sustained [by craving], such-as : head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, tendons, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, large intestines, small intestines, contents of the stomach, feces, (or) whatever ** any-other thing internal, within oneself, that's hard, solid, (and) sustained: This (is) called, ******, (the) internal earth-property.
And similarly, for the other 4 elements. It’s not necessary to play semantic games with “physical”, and examine how science views things. Examining the EBT in pali it’s very obvious kāya in EBT, and what the pali description says in later Abhdhamma and vism. is different. One has “flesh and blood”, the other excludes that, and the other 3 elements. However you want to scientifically frame the same idea is irrelevant.
THOX redefinition of kāya excludes the experience of rupa (4 elements such as the earth element described above which also explicitly contains, flesh, blood, etc). THOX re-defines kāya as collection of 4 mental aggregates. See Ab Vibhangha under bojjhanga chapter and jhana chapters.
I don’t have a problem with the non EBT samadhi model which uses appana and upacara samadhi. It’s a valid samadhi model that works in theory and practice. In ajahn mun’s books (the english translation, I don’t know if it’s true in thai), they never use the word jhana. They only talk about appana samadhi, the mind converging at the base of samadhi, upacara samadhi, in a way that’s clearly the same appana samadhi model that Vism. uses. But there’s one big difference. They never equate that with first jhana, second jhana, etc. So that’s fine. They use some terms that don’t exist in the EBT. But they don’t redefine jhāna, and over ride a qualitatively different EBT gradual samādhi training.
In VRJ (vism. redefined jhana) four jhānas, there is no experience of internal rupa, flesh and blood, wind element of felt sensation hitting skin, wind moving through belly, hearing sounds, mosquito biting you.
In EBT, there is.
That’s a contradiction, and I would consider it delusional if one can thinks that Vism. is just a refined explanation of the EBT on that point.
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I think the EBT descriptions of jhana are the closest we can come to an authentic description of the ‘real thing’.
This should mean that there is one ‘correct’ way to experience jhana- but sadly there isn’t, as jhana can be more or less refined and (jhanic ‘thorns’ and blackout jhanas come to mind), rendering a standard description rather problematic, but without which a jhana could be just anything. Postmodernism muddies the water. The standard description just anchors it in place.
To identify a flower we may not be able to give a textbook description of it. Sometimes people just have seen it so many times, they just know what it is. Jhana can be like this. Just because someone has read a description of how to swim it doesn’t mean that they know what it will be like when they try to do it. Reading about it is useful but quite limited in how helpful it is. 
With metta
The Buddha was, rightly to me, interested in processes not in objects as we mainly are in the western world following the Ancient Greek philosophers.
Let’s not make Jhana an object that we should define through fixed characteristics/parameters.
Each Jhana has specific elements that allow us to recognise which one we are in but the amount/flavour of these elements varies from meditation to meditation. For example Piti may be felt in some parts of the body or in other parts, or in the whole body if we have advanced in the Jhana practice. In all cases they are Jhana one.
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A simpler approach could be to take suttas like AN10.2 / AN11.2 and SN12.23 as a reference and constantly assess within oneself if what one believes to be practicing as samadhi is contributing to the natural unfolding of revulsion and dispassion rooted in first-hand knowledge and vision of the causes and supports of suffering and stress and conducive to the gradual but definitive destruction of the asavas.
If after experiencing what one may believe is jhana he/she finds himself still constantly strongly driven by anger, delusion and desire, than very much likely his/her practice is far from being aligned to what the Buddha was talking about.
In my view, debating the nature of the individual experience of samadhi is less important (if important at all) than seeking to discuss and understand what natural outcomes should one be seeking to notice and allow to naturally unfold when cultivating the path.
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Agree.
After spending many hours reading other materials, I came to the conclusion, the best instructions are in Sutta to develop and assess Jhana.
going for alms round while in jhana:
KN Iti (than. trans.)
§81. This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: “Monks, I have seen beings conquered by receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. I have seen beings conquered by not receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. I have seen beings conquered both by receiving offerings & by not receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.
“It’s not through having heard it from another contemplative or brahman that I say, ‘I have seen beings conquered by receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. I have seen beings conquered by not receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. I have seen beings conquered both by receiving offerings & by not receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.’
“Instead, it’s from having known it myself, seen it myself, observed it myself that I say, ‘I have seen beings conquered by receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. I have seen beings conquered by not receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. I have seen beings conquered both by receiving offerings & by not receiving offerings–their minds overwhelmed–at the break-up of the body, after death, reappearing in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell.’”
Both when receiving offerings
& not,
his concentration
doesn’t waver;
he remains
heedful:
he–continually absorbed in jhāna,
subtle in view & clear-seeing,
enjoying the ending of clinging–
is called a man
of integrity.
“yassa sakkariyamānassa, asakkārena cūbhayaṃ.
samādhi na vikampati, appamādavihārino VAR .
“taṃ jhāyinaṃ sātatikaṃ, sukhumaṃ diṭṭhivipassakaṃ .
upādānakkhayārāmaṃ, āhu sappuriso itī”ti.
sātatikaṃ c
sātatika: acting continuously. (adj.)Sātatika (adj.) [fr. last] persevering Dh 23; S ii.232; It 74; DhA i.230.
You never leave jhāna. The quality of stillness and sukha will vary according to the complexity of what you have in your field of attention. In EBT, jhana and samadhi is something potentially active all the time, with practice. It’s time to discard the pernicious redefinition of jhāna by the later Theravada orthodoxy and return to the original meaning of jhāna.
Another interesting posting on jhāna, dear Frankk.
Hope you are progressing writing your “book” on jhāna. Someone suggested to me that you should publish an essay on Gombrich Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies.
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When I read that passage, I don’t necessarily think of someone experiencing jhana while walking for alms, but rather that they continue to practice (daily) jhana meditation regardless of how little or how much they receive (on any given day) - the fact that they are able to sweep away ill will and sensual desire (implied by jhana) means that they are not attached to alms, and that their well-being, pleasure, joy and happiness are coming from within, and are not dependent on the gifts they receive from others.
That being said, I see no reason that a gifted meditator couldn’t slip into jhana for a moment during his/her almsround, but my gut tells me it would be while standing still to receive food, or perhaps in between steps…
??
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It depends based on what you call Jhana.
If you can experience Jhana while sitting down, why can’t you experience it while walking?
Remember, not every person close their eyes when they are in Jhana.
See
Especially AN 1 and SN 43 makes it absolutely clear. Even if you experience a split second amount of time in jhāna, “the time it takes to snap the fingers” as AN says, it’s first jhāna!
It’s the later Theravada scripture that redefines jhāna as a type of formless frozen samadhi.
You can hear in first jhāna, you can think in first jhana, you can walk for alms in first jhana.
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While the keyword “first jhāna” doesn’t appear in this sutta, clearly that is what the Buddha is talking about in KN iti 38. Just as in MN 19, there’s an overlap area where 4sp (satipatthana) and 1st jhāna intersect. If one has sufficient passadhi-bojjhanga, i.e. sufficiently tranquil body and mind, enough for piti sukha to emerge, then its first jhana. If one is thinking too much or too intensely, then it would block kaya-passadhi (body tranquility), preventing first jhana from being continuous.
If you’ve ever wondered what the “vivicca akuslahei dhammehi” (secluded from unskillful qualities) and “vivekajam piti-sukham” (seclusion-based rapture and pleasure) that characterizes first jhana is exactly, this sutta explains (pa-viveka). Instead of piti and sukha, the Buddha talks about ārama and rata (enjoyment and delight).
Also notice that “vivicca akusalehi” explained below uses key words from the right effort formula, guarding sense doors, looking for unabandoned akusala. The V&V (thinking and evaluation) of first jhana is performing the role of right effort. The realization that one is succeeding in doing that , the piti sukha arising from knowing one is purifying virtue well, is the well spring of first jhana’s piti sukha. The simile of the bathman in AN 5.28 working wiht the ball of soap powder, that is the vitakka, vicara, right effort that is keeping the piti sukha going.
In EBT first jhana, it’s an organic process that involves all 8 factors of the path. khema, abyapajja, are referring directly to right intention. The ability to discriminate, recognize dukkha causing activity from dukkha ceasing activity relies on right view and right effort.
In Vism. redefined first jhāna, it’s a GMO (genetically modified organism) samadhi that divorces the wisdom development aspect of samma samadhi and turns it into a samatha kung fu. Divorcing vipassana from samatha.
Don’t trust GMO jhana. Stick with the organic pure first jhāna of the EBT.
(99% thanissaro trans.)
KN Iti 38 vitakka
|
♦ 1. vitakka-suttaṃ (KN 4.38) n |
|
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♦ 38. vuttañhetaṃ bhagavatā, |
§38. This was said by the Blessed One, |
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vuttam-arahatāti me sutaṃ -- |
said by the Arahant, so I have heard: |
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♦ “tathāgataṃ, bhikkhave, arahantaṃ sammā-sam-buddhaṃ dve vitakkā bahulaṃ samudācaranti — |
“Monks, two trains of thought often occur to the Tathāgata, worthy & rightly self-awakened: |
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khemo ca vitakko, paviveko ca . |
the thought of safety & that of seclusion. |
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a-byāpajjh-ārāmo, bhikkhave, |
“The Tathāgata enjoys non-ill will, |
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tathāgato a-byāpajjha-rato. |
delights in non-ill will. |
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tamenaṃ, bhikkhave, tathāgataṃ a-byāpajjh-ārāmaṃ |
To him–enjoying non-ill will, |
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a-byāpajjha-rataṃ |
delighting in non-ill will– |
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eseva vitakko bahulaṃ samudācarati — |
this thought often occurs: |
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‘imāyāhaṃ iriyāya na kiñci byābādhemi |
‘By this activity I harm no one at all, |
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tasaṃ vā thāvaraṃ vā’ti. |
whether weak or firm.’ |
|
♦ “pa-vivek-ārāmo, bhikkhave, tathāgato |
“The Tathāgata enjoys seclusion, |
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pa-viveka-rato. |
delights in seclusion. |
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tamenaṃ, bhikkhave, tathāgataṃ pa-vivek-ārāmaṃ |
To him–enjoying seclusion, |
|
Pa-viveka-rataṃ |
delighting in seclusion– |
|
eseva vitakko bahulaṃ samudācarati — |
this thought often occurs: |
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‘yaṃ akusalaṃ taṃ pahīnan’ti. |
‘Whatever is unskillful is abandoned.’ |
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♦ “tasmātiha, bhikkhave, |
“Thus, monks, |
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tumhepi abyāpajjh-ārāmā viharatha |
you too should live enjoying non-ill will, |
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a-byāpajjha-ratā. |
delighting in non-ill will. |
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tesaṃ vo, bhikkhave, tumhākaṃ |
To you– |
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a-byāpajjh-ārāmānaṃ viharataṃ |
enjoying non-ill will, |
|
a-byāpajjha-ratānaṃ |
delighting in non-ill will– |
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eseva vitakko bahulaṃ samudācarissati — |
this thought will often occur: |
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‘imāya mayaṃ iriyāya na kiñci byābādhema |
‘By this activity we harm no one at all, |
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tasaṃ vā thāvaraṃ vā’ti. |
whether weak or firm.’ |
|
♦ “pa-vivek-ārāmā, bhikkhave, |
“You too should live enjoying seclusion, |
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viharatha pa-viveka-ratā. |
delighting in seclusion. |
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tesaṃ vo, bhikkhave, tumhākaṃ |
To you– |
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pa-vivek-ārāmānaṃ viharataṃ |
enjoying seclusion, |
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pa-viveka-ratānaṃ |
delighting in seclusion– |
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eseva vitakko bahulaṃ samudācarissati — |
this thought will often occur: |
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‘kiṃ akusalaṃ, |
‘What is unskillful? |
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kiṃ appahīnaṃ, |
What is not yet abandoned? |
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kiṃ pajahāmā’”ti. |
What are we abandoning?’” |
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etam-atthaṃ bhagavā avoca. |
This-stuff the-blessed-one said. |
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tatth-etaṃ iti vuccati — |
then he said some more - |
(verse)
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♦ “tathāgataṃ buddham-a-sayha-sāhinaṃ, |
To the Tathāgata, awakened, who endured what is hard to endure, |
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duve vitakkā samudācaranti naṃ. |
two thoughts occur: |
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♦ khemo vitakko paṭhamo udīrito, |
safety, the first thought mentioned; |
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tato viveko dutiyo pakāsito. |
seclusion, the second declared. |
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♦ “tamonudaṃ pāragataṃ mahesiṃ, |
The dispeller of darkness, free of effluent, the great seer who has gone beyond, |
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taṃ pattipattaṃ vasimaṃ an-āsavaṃ. |
reached attainment, gained mastery, crossed over the poisons; |
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♦ visantaraṃ VAR taṇhak-khaye vimuttaṃ, |
who’s released in the ending of craving: |
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taṃ ve muniṃ antima-deha-dhāriṃ. |
that sage bears his last body, |
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♦ mārañ-jahaṃ brūmi jarāya pāraguṃ. |
has shaken off Māra, I tell you, has gone beyond aging. |
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♦ “sele yathā pabbata-muddh-aniṭṭhito, |
As one standing on a rocky crag |
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yathāpi passe janataṃ samantato. |
would see the people all around below, |
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♦ tathūpamaṃ dhamma-mayaṃ sumedho, |
so the wise one, with the all-around eye, |
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pāsādam-āruyha samanta-cakkhu. |
having scaled the tower made of Dhamma, |
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♦ sok-āvatiṇṇaṃ janatam-apet-asoko, |
having crossed over sorrow, gazes on those overwhelmed with sorrow, |
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avekkhati jāti-jar-ābhi-bhūtan”ti. |
conquered by aging & death. |
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♦ ayampi attho vutto bhagavatā, iti me sutanti. paṭhamaṃ. |
This was said by the-blessed one, so I heard. |
| See also: Dhp 28 | |
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