AN 5.26 This is what's meant by speech ceasing in first jhāna

Essays
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From SN 36.11 Rahogata: Alone: 3 fold vedana scheme. Connected to dukkha and saṅkhārā, then 9 progressive cessations in samādhi attainments similar to the 30 suttas in AN 9.30-9.60, with the very interesting and unique feature of first jhāna with speech (vāca) ceasing. Note this feature of first jhāna then gets repeated in this Vagga 4 more times in SN 36.15-18

AN 5.26 gives a very clear example of how the oral tradition seamlessly integrates into samādhi development, from first to fourth jhāna all the way to arahantship. While the words “first jhāna” do not explicitly appear, the activity of V&V (vitakka and vicara), S&S (sati and sampajano), presence of pīti, sukha, upekkha, make it pretty clear that’s what is happening.

AN 7.61 shows how Mahā Moggallāna uses speech in samādhi to fight torpor.

Also note how sound does not have to be a thorn in first jhāna. Here, for example, sitting in the live presence of the Buddha or an arahant giving a dhamma talk is not only the direct cause of pīti and pamojja that’s generated, but can happen concurrently while one is in first jhāna, according to a straightforward okham’s razor reading of EBT.

AN 5.26 (abridged version with repetitions cut and summarized)

AN 5.26 vimutt-āyatana-suttaṃ
 AN 5.26 liberation-base-discourse
“pañc-imāni, bhikkhave,
 "[there are] five-(of)-these, ***********,
vimutt-āyatanāni
 liberation-bases,
yattha bhikkhuno appamattassa
 by means of which, if a monk {dwells} assiduous,
ātāpino pahitattassa viharato
 ardent, resolute, ********,
a-vimuttaṃ vā cittaṃ vimuccati,
 (his) un-liberated ** mind (is) liberated,
a-parik-khīṇā vā āsavā parik-khayaṃ gacchanti,
 un-destroyed ** asinine-inclinations, utterly-destroyed (they) become.
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”
♦ “katamāni pañca?
 What five?

(1) First jhāna possible while hearing live dhamma talk

idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno
 Here, monks, (for a) monk,
satthā dhammaṃ deseti
 (a) teacher (of) dhamma teaches (him),
aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī.
 {or a} certain fellow monk [teaches him],
yathā yathā, bhikkhave, tassa bhikkhuno
 in whatever way , *********, (for the) monk (that)
satthā dhammaṃ deseti
 (a) teacher (of) dhamma teaches (him),
aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī.
 {or a} certain fellow monk [teaches him],

(refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship)

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ
 like-that, accordingly, he ******
dhamme attha-paṭisaṃvedī ca hoti
 {feels [inspiration]} in Dhamma meaning and
dhamma-paṭisaṃvedī ca.
 {feels [inspiration]} in Dhamma,
tassa attha-paṭisaṃvedino dhamma-paṭisaṃvedino
 as he {feels [inspiration] in} Dhamma-meaning (and) Dhamma,
pāmojjaṃ jāyati.
 joy arises.
pamuditassa pīti jāyati.
 (When he is) joyful, rapture arises.
pīti-manassa kāyo passambhati.
 (with) rapturous-mind, (the) body (becomes) tranquil.
passaddha-kāyo sukhaṃ vedeti.
 (with) tranquil-body, pleasure (he) feels.
sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.
 (For one feeling) pleasure, (the) mind (becomes) concentrated.
idaṃ, bhikkhave, paṭhamaṃ vimutt-āyatanaṃ
 This, monks, (is the) first liberation-basis,
yattha bhikkhuno appamattassa
 by means of which, if a monk {dwells} assiduous,
ātāpino pahitattassa viharato
 ardent, resolute, ********,
a-vimuttaṃ vā cittaṃ vimuccati,
 (his) un-liberated ** mind (is) liberated,
a-parik-khīṇā vā āsavā parik-khayaṃ gacchanti,
 un-destroyed ** asinine-inclinations, utterly-destroyed (they) become.
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”

(2) Giving a dhamma talk leads to himself getting jhāna

♦ “puna ca-paraṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno
 “Again, and-furthermore,
(...instead of using the previous methods described…)
 (...instead of using the previous methods described…)
yathā yathā, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
 in whatever way, **********, the monk
yathā-sutaṃ yathā-pariyattaṃ dhammaṃ
 Has-heard (and) has-learned (the) dhamma
vitthārena paresaṃ deseti
 (and in) detail (to) others (he) teaches,

(refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship)

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ
 like-that, accordingly, he ******
(… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
 (… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”

(3) Reciting memorized dhamma passage leads to jhāna

♦ “puna ca-paraṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno
 “Again, and-furthermore,
(...instead of using the previous methods described…)
 (...instead of using the previous methods described…)
yathā yathā, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
 in whatever way, **********, the monk
yathā-sutaṃ yathā-pariyattaṃ dhammaṃ
 Has-heard (and) has-learned (the) dhamma
vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ karoti
 (and in) detail (he) recites (that) ******.

(refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship)

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ
 like-that, accordingly, he ******
(… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
 (… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”

(4) first jhāna possible while thinking and pondering memorized dhamma

♦ “puna ca-paraṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno
 “Again, and-furthermore,
(...instead of using the previous methods described…)
 (...instead of using the previous methods described…)
yathā yathā, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
 in whatever way, **********, the monk
yathā-sutaṃ yathā-pariyattaṃ dhammaṃ
 Has-heard (and) has-learned (the) dhamma
cetasā anu-vitakketi anu-vicāreti
 (and) mentally (he) ponders (and) examines
Manas-ān-upekkhati
 (and his mind) carefully-inspects (that)

(refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship)

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ
 like-that, accordingly, he ******
(… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
 (… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”

(5) No V&V, undirected samādhi into 2nd jhāna or higher

♦ “puna ca-paraṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno
 “Again, and-furthermore,
(...instead of using the previous methods described…)
 (...instead of using the previous methods described…)
api ca khvassa
 but he has
aññataraṃ samādhi-nimittaṃ sug-gahitaṃ hoti
 (a) certain concentration-sign well-grapsped ****,
su-manasi-kataṃ s-ūpadhāritaṃ sup-paṭividdhaṃ paññāya
 well-attended-to, well-sustained, well-penetrated (with) wisdom

(refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship)

tathā tathā so tasmiṃ
 like-that, accordingly, he ******
(… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
 (… refrain: 7sb → jhāna → arahantship ... )
An-anuppattaṃ vā an-uttaraṃ yogak-khemaṃ
 (the) un-reached un-surpassed security-from-the-yoke
Anu-pāpuṇāti.
 (he) reaches.”

(conclusion same as intro)

AN 7.61 similarly, these 2 methods to fight torpor in samādhi

Note Maha-moggallana is the poster child for the 4 iddhi-pada and foremost in practice of the 6 abhiñña (5 of the 6 are psychical powers). And the fact that the four iddhi-pada (see SN 51.20) don’t mention pīti or sukha or sāta (bliss factors in jhāna), we can be reasonably certain he’s working on the perfection of an imperturbable 4th jhāna for the sake of exercising 6 abhiñña. So these two methods Moggallana uses are to perfect his fourth jhāna. He’s not a beginner meditator trying to attain or maintain first jhāna. In other words, if (V&V) thinking and evaluation of a memorized dhamma passage, while one is in first jhāna, is not sufficient to end drowsiness, then breaking out of first jhāna by reciting the dhamma passage out loud is a necessary measure.

(2. Recall dhamma using V&V, thinking and evaluation, and upekkha)

♦ “no ce te evaṃ viharato
 “But if by doing this
taṃ middhaṃ pahīyetha,
 That drowsiness (is) {not} removed,
tato tvaṃ, moggallāna,
 Then ****, *********,
yathā-sutaṃ yathā-pariyattaṃ dhammaṃ
 {with the Dhamma} as-heard (and) as-memorized *******,
cetasā anu-vitakkeyyāsi anu-vicāreyyāsi,
 mentally re-think (and) re-examine (that),
manasā an-upekkheyyāsi.
 (in your) mind consider-it-carefully.
ṭhānaṃ kho panetaṃ vijjati yaṃ te evaṃ viharato
 "It’s possible that by doing this
taṃ middhaṃ pahīyetha.
 that drowsiness (is) removed. "

(3. Recite that dhamma out loud, vocally)

♦ “no ce te evaṃ viharato
 “But if by doing this
taṃ middhaṃ pahīyetha,
 That drowsiness (is) {not} removed,
tato tvaṃ, moggallāna,
 Then ****, *********,
yathā-sutaṃ yathā-pariyattaṃ dhammaṃ
 {with the Dhamma} as-heard (and) as-memorized *******,
vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ kareyyāsi.
 (in) detail recite-it-aloud; you-should-do-that.
ṭhānaṃ kho panetaṃ vijjati yaṃ te evaṃ viharato
 "It’s possible that by doing this
taṃ middhaṃ pahīyetha.
 that drowsiness (is) removed. "
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Here’s an excerpt from a Thanissaro essay that shows how the ekaggata jhāna factor allows for hearing dhamma teaching while one is in jhāna:

Mv.II.3.4 “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered…

In Mv.II.3.4, the phrase, “we pay attention,” in the instructions for how to listen to the Pāṭimokkha, is defined as: “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered mind, an undistracted mind.” Even if ek’agga were translated as “one-pointed” here, the “point” is obviously not so restricted as to make the ears fall silent. Otherwise, we would not be able to hear the Pāṭimokkha at all. And the fact that the mind is ek’agga doesn’t mean that we can’t also hear other sounds aside from the Pāṭimokkha. It’s just that those sounds don’t make the mind lose its focus on a single theme.

AN 5:151 with ek’agga mind one can listen and think

In AN 5:151, the Buddha lists five qualities that enable one, when listening to the true Dhamma, to “alight on assuredness, on the rightness of skillful qualities.” The five qualities are:

“One doesn’t hold the talk in contempt.

“One doesn’t hold the speaker in contempt.

“One doesn’t hold oneself in contempt.

“One listens to the Dhamma with an unscattered mind, an ek’agga mind.

“One attends appropriately.”

Because appropriate attention means to contemplate experiences in terms of the four noble truths (see MN 2), this passage shows that when the mind is ek’agga, it’s not only able to hear. It can also think at the same time. If it couldn’t hear or think, it couldn’t make sense of the Dhamma talk. So again, even if we translate ek’agga as “one-pointed,” the one-pointed mind is not so pointy that it cannot think or hear sounds. This would defeat the purpose of listening to the Dhamma and would get in the way of “alighting on assuredness.”

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From Vimutti-magga, this is Arahant Upatissa’s explanation of speech ceasing in first jhāna, and the ability to hear sounds in jhāna:

(speech ceasing in first jhāna)

Q. What are the miscellaneous teachings in the field of concentration?

A. Stoppage of sounds; overturning; rising; transcending; access; initial application of thought; feeling; uncertainty. “Stoppage of sounds”: In the first meditation, jhāna, speech is stopped. On entering the fourth meditation, jhāna, the yogin stops breathing.

Gradual stoppage of sounds: When the yogin enters into concentration, he hears sounds, but he is not able to speak because the faculty of hearing and that of speech are not united. To a man who enters form concentration {four jhānas}, sound is disturbing. Hence the Buddha taught: “To a man who enters meditation, jhāna, sound is a thorn”.

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Thanks a lot Frankk.

My working hypothesis regarding dhamma learning, memorizing, pondering, noise and jhana developement is going along these lines. Thanks for putting relevant passages together.

One of the thing I want to try is to have a teaching from the sutta memorized and recite it during a meditation, and see what this does… but I’m not there yet!

Sorry basic question maybe, but what is Mv?

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Mv should be maha vagga, Somewhere in the Vinaya. I couldn’t find it on sutta central vinaya, but in DPR, searching for “ekagga” produces:

bolded part says something like, “listening well, with entire mind, ekagga mind”

Vin 4, 2. uposathakkhandhako, 69. pātimokkhuddesānujānanā, para. 3 ⇒

  1. pātimokkhanti ādimetaṃ mukhametaṃ pamukhametaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ. tena vuccati pātimokkhanti. āyasmantoti piyavacanametaṃ garuvacanametaṃ sagāravasappatissādhivacanametaṃ āyasmantoti. uddisissāmīti ācikkhissāmi desessāmi paññapessāmi paṭṭhapessāmi vivarissāmi vibhajissāmi uttāniṃ karissāmi pakāsessāmi. tanti pātimokkhaṃ vuccati. sabbeva santāti yāvatikā tassā parisāya therā ca navā ca majjhimā ca, ete vuccanti sabbeva santāti. sādhukaṃ suṇomāti aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasi katvā sabbacetasā samannāharāma. manasi karomāti ekaggacittā avikkhittacittā avisāhaṭacittā nisāmema. yassa siyā āpattīti therassa vā navassa vā majjhimassa vā, pañcannaṃ vā āpattikkhandhānaṃ aññatarā āpatti, sattannaṃ vā āpattikkhandhānaṃ aññatarā āpatti. so āvikareyyāti so deseyya, so vivareyya, so uttāniṃ kareyya, so pakāseyya saṅghamajjhe vā gaṇamajjhe vā ekapuggale vā. asantī nāma āpatti anajjhāpannā vā hoti, āpajjitvā vā vuṭṭhitā. tuṇhī bhavitabbanti adhivāsetabbaṃ na byāharitabbaṃ. parisuddhāti vedissāmīti jānissāmi dhāressāmi. yathā kho pana paccekapuṭṭhassa veyyākaraṇaṃ hotīti yathā ekena eko puṭṭho byākareyya, evameva tassā parisāya jānitabbaṃ maṃ pucchatīti. evarūpā nāma parisā bhikkhuparisā vuccati. yāvatatiyaṃ anussāvitaṃ hotīti sakimpi anussāvitaṃ hoti, dutiyampi anussāvitaṃ hoti, tatiyampi anussāvitaṃ hoti. saramānoti jānamāno sañjānamāno. santī nāma āpatti ajjhāpannā vā hoti, āpajjitvā vā avuṭṭhitā. nāvikareyyāti na deseyya, na vivareyya, na uttāniṃ kareyya, na pakāseyya saṅghamajjhe vā gaṇamajjhe vā ekapuggale vā. sampajānamusāvādassa hotīti. sampajānamusāvāde kiṃ hoti? dukkaṭaṃ hoti. antarāyiko dhammo vutto bhagavatāti. kissa antarāyiko? paṭhamassa jhānassa adhigamāya antarāyiko, dutiyassa jhānassa adhigamāya antarāyiko, tatiyassa jhānassa adhigamāya antarāyiko, catutthassa jhānassa adhigamāya antarāyiko, jhānānaṃ vimokkhānaṃ samādhīnaṃ samāpattīnaṃ nekkhammānaṃ nissaraṇānaṃ pavivekānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ adhigamāya antarāyiko. tasmāti taṅkāraṇā. saramānenāti jānamānena sañjānamānena. visuddhāpekkhenāti vuṭṭhātukāmena visujjhitukāmena. santī nāma āpatti ajjhāpannā vā hoti, āpajjitvā vā avuṭṭhitā. āvikātabbāti āvikātabbā saṅghamajjhe vā gaṇamajjhe vā ekapuggale vā. āvikatā hissa phāsu hotīti. kissa phāsu hoti? paṭhamassa jhānassa adhigamāya phāsu hoti, dutiyassa jhānassa adhigamāya phāsu hoti, tatiyassa jhānassa adhigamāya phāsu hoti, catutthassa jhānassa adhigamāya phāsu hoti, jhānānaṃ vimokkhānaṃ samādhīnaṃ samāpattīnaṃ nekkhammānaṃ nissaraṇānaṃ pavivekānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ adhigamāya phāsu hotīti.
    (…unnecessary comment removed…)
6

If It is too hard to memorise the sutta as it is try to at least map the concepts. Above all, keep in mind the causalities the sutta is inviting you to explore.

It has proven fruitful to me to always start with a recap of the eight path factors, the four noble truths and their respective enobling tasks, and the impersonal process of the transcendental dependent origination as found in AN10.2.

This allows for an initial gauging and awareness of how much of the good and supportive qualities are or not present in the heart. If most of the list is checked emphasis can be put in refining stillness.

If most of the list is left unticked it is better to put effort in the recap of the four noble truths or exercise a bit of the threefold right thought (renunciation, friendliness and harmlessness).

7

Thanks to an anonymous tip, the vinaya passage in question has been located:

https://suttacentral.net/pi/pi-tv-kd2/8.457-
https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd2/21

Sādhukaṃ suṇomāti aṭṭhiṃ katvā manasi katvā sabbacetasā samannāharāma. Manasi karomāti ekaggacittā avikkhit­ta­cittā avisāhaṭacittā nisāmema. Yassa siyā āpattīti therassa vā navassa vā majjhimassa vā, pañcannaṃ vā āpattik­khan­dhā­naṃ aññatarā āpatti, sattannaṃ vā āpattik­khan­dhā­naṃ aññatarā āpatti. So āvikareyyāti so deseyya, so vivareyya, so uttāniṃ kareyya, so pakāseyya saṃghamajjhe vā gaṇamajjhe vā ekapuggale vā. Asantī nāma āpatti anajjhāpannā vā hoti, āpajjitvā vā vuṭṭhitā. Tuṇhī bhavitabbanti adhivāsetabbaṃ na byāharitabbaṃ. Parisuddhāti

english:

“And thus, monks, should it be recited: The Order should be informed by an experienced, competent monk, saying: ‘Honoured sirs, let the Order listen to me. Today, the fifteenth (day), is an Observance (day). If it seems right to the Order, the Order may carry out Observance, it may recite the Pātimokkha. What is the Order’s first duty? Let the venerable ones
announce entire purity. I will recite the Pātimokkha (while) one and all of us present listen properly and pay attention to it. He for whom there may be an offence should reveal it. If there is no offence, you should become silent. By your becoming silent I shall thus know that the venerable ones are quite pure. For as there is an answer for each question, so it is proclaimed up to the third time in an assembly like this. Whatever monk remembering while it is being proclaimed up to the third time that there is an existent offence and should not reveal it, there comes to be conscious lying for him. Now, conscious lying, venerable ones, is a thing called a stumbling-block by the Lord. Therefore the existent offence should be revealed
by a monk who remembers that he has fallen (into an offence) and who desires purity; for when it is revealed there comes to be comfort for him.’”

and further down, we get a gloss on the key words we’re interested in, ekaggata and vikkhita:

(We) listen properly means: having applied ourselves, having attended, we concentrate with all our mind.

(We) pay attention means: we listen, minds one-pointed, minds not distracted, minds not perturbed.

When the satipatthana and iddipada formulas reference “vikkhittam cittam”, it’s talking about the hindrances that direct the mind away towards the external, away from the internal function of what ekagga citta is supposed to be doing.

In conclusion, this vinaya passage is showing clearly that samadhi, ekkaggata, fighting off the hindrances that prevent samadhi (using kusala V&V to fight off akusala V&V), hearing what’s being recited, thinking about what’s being recited, remembering what was recited earlier and comparing to what you’re hearing now, all of those activities is compatible with the EBT definition of first jhāna. I,e. you can do all of that while you are in the first jhana attainment! You won’t be able to find EBT passages that point to the contrary. That’s why Vism. had to invent an access concentration stage to divest jhana from the ability to hear, think, process, and redefine jhana as a frozen samadhi.

right samadhi, right concentration is a full time job, as well as right mindfulness. They happen concurrently, and should be maximized at all times, not just when you’re in a formal sit. The sooner you abandon the wrong notions that right samadhi is something you do when you formally sit and right mindfulness is something you do when you’re not sitting, the sooner you’ll juice your practice many times fold, and squeeze a lot more benefit out of the 8aam (noble eightfold path)

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As Ajahn Brahm has explained in his book, SN 36.11 appears to say the meditator can no longer think (and thus speak) in the 1st jhana.

Thus AN 5.26 appears to support the views of many monks, such as Ajahn Brahm, Sujato, Buddhadasa, etc, (and also my lay man self) that vitakka & vicara in respect to jhana does not refer to ordinary thinking & intention.

Regards

9

Where did Ajahn Brahm explain that in his book? Searching for “AN 5.26”, and “AN 5”, returns no search results.

I would be interested to hear what he said about speech ceasing in first jhāna. I have the digital version of the book so if you could just give me a short fairly unique search string I can located the exact position quickly.

If you compare with the SN 36.11 and AN 5.26 to suttas in AN 9.30 through AN 9.60, which all deal with the 9 progressive samadhis, it’s clear when the Buddha is talking about factors in jhāna ceasing, those factors have very close proximity to that jhāna in which it ceases.

In other words, it’s very clear that speech is something that is close to first jhāna, can knock one out of jhana just as piti would end the 3rd jhana, and V&V would end the 2nd jhana, etc.

The factors that would tend to knock one out of first jhana are 5 hindrances, especially thoughts related to sensual desire. The Buddha making a point that speech disqualifies one from first jhana should make it very obvious what V&V would be the direct thoughts and evaluations that one has prior to forming speech and vocally speaking it.

V&V, directed thoughts that are kusala, such as metta, karuna, thinking about the qualities of the breath as they are experienced in the body of body and the mind, those are legally and clearly defined in the standard first jhana formula as the type of V&V that happens in first jhāna.

Even in early abhidhamma, see the Ab Vibhanga for first jhana, V&V is defined there consistent with the EBT. That’s why Vimt., which uses early Abhidhamma, is also consistent with the EBT on this V&V issue. And Vism, which uses a later abhidhamma, they segregate the normal standard V&V into the type that happens in access concentration, and the "one pointed’ samatha kung fu type of V&V for appana samadhi, which they equate with their redefinition of jhana.

10

I copied AN 5.26 from the topic title. I meant to say SN 36.11.

Ajahn Brahm’s book states on page 155: “There is no possibility of thought” & “no decision making process available” in each jhana.

This is also in this book: Ajahn Brahmavamso - The Jhanas

If while meditating the thought “Is this jhana?”arises,then it cannot be jhana! Thoughts like that can’t come up within these deep states of stillness. Only afterward, when you review those states, can you look back and say,“Ah, that was a jhana.” page 47 Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond

:seedling:

I personally agree with the essence of what Ajahn Brahma has said but do not agree 100% literally. I think when the mind reaches 1st jhana, it knows immediately: “This is 1st jhana”; therefore there is some kind of discrimination or perception involved (but not ordinary active thinking). In other words, I do not agree that ‘only afterwards by review’ is the 1st jhana known.

Where does AN 5.26 refer to jhana? Thanks. Just because AN 5.26 mentions ‘rapture’, this may not mean jhana because there are many levels of rapture. Not all rapture is jhana.

Not necessarily. This has been discussed many times. V & V in jhana is not the same as V & V in speak formation. This is the point I originally made. Ajahn Sujato, Brahm, Buddhadasa, etc, have made their view clear that V & V in jhana is not ordinary V & V.

Here: Why vitakka doesn’t mean ‘thinking’ in jhana | Sujato’s Blog

Therefore, as I originally posted, SN 36.11 supports the view of Sujato, Brahm, Buddhadasa and my unimportant self that V & V in the 1st jhana is not the ordinary V & V mentioned in MN 44 that is the cause or conditioner (vaci sankhara) of speech.

Kind regards :seedling:

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The 7sb sequence is in AN 5.26 (awakening factors) includes samma samadhi as part of samadhi-bojjhanga. And comparing the STED (standard EBT definition ) for first jhana, if you have piti, sukha, V&V, samadhi, you’ve got jhana.

I’ve read Bhante Sujato’s article on V&V, and it’s based on an unproven assumption. If you agree with the unproven assumption that jhana must be a frozen samadhi where thought is not possible, then of course you have to redefine V&V as some type of “applied and sustained thought”, what I call samatha kung fu. But where is the EBT text that shows this? It can’t be found.

Personally, I think Bhante Sujato is going to change his mind one of these days, like Bhante Gunaratana did.

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