Unorthodox renderings of anatta

Answer:
I had said, “Icca” and “anicca” mean “what one desires” and “what one desires cannot be maintained to one’s liking”, AND
When icca is strong, one has the sanna (perception) of nicca: that one always keep it that way. Anicca means that perception is wrong.

Pali “grammar” ( if you can call it “grammar”) is very different from English grammar.

If you try to convert the sentence “I seek refuge in the Buddha” to Pali literally, word by word, it comes out something like, “Aham gaccami Buddhan saranam”.
But as you know, it is “Buddhan saranam gaccami”. There is not even a subject “aham” for “I”. Pali is a spoken language, with no grammar like in modern languages. It does not have its alphabet either. The Pali Tipitaka was written with Sinhala script 2000 years ago.

So, when it says,… rūpaṃ niccaṃ vā aniccaṃ vā aniccaṃ vā..”, it means, "… can a rupa be maintained (niccam) to one’s satisfaction or not (aniccam)…”.

One of the key problems we have today is this tendency to translate Pali literature word by word.

With metta, Lal

[quote=“Lal, post:83, topic:4986”]
But as you know, it is “Buddhan saranam gaccami”. There is not even a subject “aham” for “I”.
[/quote]This is because pronouns are frequently not needed in heavily inflected languages. Once you have gaccāmi, you do not need aham, because no one other than “I” can correspond with gaccāmi, it being a first person singular conjugation.

It is just the same in Spanish, the pronoun is not needed, so it is dropped often.

I sing :arrow_right: canto
We sing :arrow_right: cantamos

No pronoun required, no subject required, because the “subject” is bound with the verb.

Similar things happen in Latin & Sanskrit, all of them (including Pāli) being heavily inflected Indo-European languages (or Euro-Indian languages, if we want to break down Euro-centrism).

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Sorry but this makes sense only in your mind- it is disconnected to the Pali beneath it.

You suggest it is unintelligible - which is why you feel free to interpret it based on your personal inclinations, but lots of people understand it very well.

Rupa cannot be maintained to one’s satisfaction-because…it cannot be maintained to ones satisfaction…? I suggest it cannot be maintained because it is impermanent which is at the root of your interpretation.

With metta

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Actually X suffers precisely due to the fact that the cancer has potential to go away. I.e., there was (or can be) such a state where X’s body did not (or does not) have cancer.

X doesn’t suffer because of the cancer itself. X suffers due to the thought “I wish I did not have cancer”. This thought can only arise because X’s body is subject to change (anicca)–because it has the potential to switch between the cancerous and non-cancerous states.

Suppose that in a hypothetical world everyone is born with cancer and dies with it. Since their bodies do not have a non-cancerous state can they ever have the thought “I wish I did not have cancer”? Of course not. Why not? Because they do not know of a non-cancerous body to long for. Since they do not have that thought they are not subject to the same Dukkha (of not getting what they want).

To approach it another way: even if your cancer goes away, this is not really satisfactory. Because the body that you get is not one that’s immune to cancer. You still haven’t transcended the potential of getting cancer again. You’re still going to be worried about getting cancer again. Both cancer and non-cancer, both pain and pleasure, are a result of change (anicca). If not for change there would be no pain and no pleasure. This fluctuation (anicca) between pleasure and pain is Dukkha.

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[quote=“gnlaera, post:9, topic:4986”]mind we may be dealing with a cult-like mindset situation.
[/quote]
It’s certain, and with a sprinkling of nationalism too methinks.

‘Vstakan receives no answers to his questions whatsoever’

Seems legit :mudra:

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The teaching of Marx is all-powerful because it is true… (V. Lenin)
… and true because it is all-powerful. (Vstakan)

The eye is not yours: abandon it. When you have abandoned it, that will lead to your welfare and happiness. sn35.101

What does it mean to abandon the eye?

You said, “Hi Lal, thanks for your readiness to answer our questions!
I have a couple of questions as to Rajitha if you don’t mind.”

Answer: Sorry. I guess I was in a rush and missed some of your questions.

1.I already explained that “atta” is a perception in one’s mind. It is gender neutral. It can have several closely related meanings depending on the context: helpless, fruitless, essence-less, etc

2.The change in interpretation of anicca and anatta happened well after Buddhaghosa, who only changed real Anapanasati bhavana to breath meditation and also introduced Hindu kasina meditation as Buddhist.

The early Europeans who came across both Sanskrit Vedic literature in India and Pali literature in Sri Lanka were responsible for introducing the incorrect interpretations for anicca and anatta. They thought anicca is same as Sanskrit Anitya (which does mean impermanence), and anatta to be the same as anathma (which does mean no-self). Details are given in the post I referred to earlier.

Both India and Sri Lanka were in bad shape in those days (1800’s), and there were not many learned bhikkhus in Sri Lanka to intervene. The excellent book, “The Search for the Buddha” by Charles Allen (2003) describes this historical background well. Of course he does not talk about anicca, anatta.

3.Sinhala is very close to Pali, as I have detailed at my website. The Tipitaka was written with Sinhala script, since Pali does not have its own alphabet. Then Sinhala Arahants wrote Sinhala commentaries to explain the deep concepts in the Tipitaka, and actually Buddhaghosa’s task was to edit and convert those Sinhala commentaries to Pali. Visuddhimagga was the result. There is an original Pali version of Visuddhimagga (available on Amazon), and one can see that anicca and anatta remain intact. But he did misinterpret Anapana and Kasina meditations.
I have explained all this in the Historical Background section at my website, as mentioned in earlier comments. You can also read about it in Bhikkhu Nyanamoli’s translation of Visuddgimagga. In the Introduction, he discusses how Buddhaghosa was sent to Sri Lanka by a bhikkhu named Revata in India, to translate the Sinhala Commentaries to Pali.

4.You sad, “Why don’t you consider the Sinhala word api that most probably comes from atman”. The only Sinhala word “api” that I know means “us”. What does that have to do with atman? Also, atman is a Sanskrit word, and I think it is related to athma. But both those words have nothing to with atta or anatta. This is the mistake that those early European scholars did. They tried to find the roots for Pali words in Sanskrit.

5.There are many Sanskrit words used in Sinhala. Some of them, like “artha” can be used, even though not necessary. The actual Pali word is pronounced “aththa”, i.e., atta. As I said, atta has many closely related meanings depending on where used.
By the way, even in English, the meaning of a word can depend on the where used: The word “right” has two different meanings in “Take a right turn” and “You are right”, for example.

6.My only source is Tipitaka, and the discourses of Waharaka Thero who pointed out the connections between Pali and Sinhala words.
When you talk about “scholars”, how can scholars who are not even Buddhists explain deep concepts in Buddha Dhamma? Those early European scholars had no idea about Buddha Dhamma. Translating Tipitaka cannot be compared to translating a book from one language to another. There are deep Dhamma concepts like anicca and anatta, that they had no idea about.
But I must say (as I emphasized in my posts), that I am grateful to those early European scholars who devoted their lives to collect and preserve those Pali documents. If not for them, most of those could have been lost. As can be seen in the old pictures from 1800’s in Charles Allen’s book, both India and Sri Lanka were in very bad shape in the 1800’s.

7.I already replied to this.

With metta, Lal

“Pleasant feeling is pleasant in remaining, & painful in changing, friend Visakha. Painful feeling is painful in remaining & pleasant in changing. Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.044.than.html

Thanks for your answers! A couple of general observations before we finish the discussion (feel free not to answer to them if you don’t feel like it)

The attha as a concept is genderless, the word ‘attha’ is not. It has a grammatical gender that does not necessarily correspond to the natural one. E.g., the German word Mädchen ‘girl’ is actually grammatically neutral. The Romanian swear word for male genitals (not mentioning the word itself here) is suprisingly grammatically feminine. The Pali word ‘attha’ is either grammatically masculine of feminine.

Well, I quoted you the Pali edition of the Visuddhimagga. You may take the Visuddhimagga in the Sinhalese script and look up the quotations I provided above. These quotations, disregarding how you spell the word ‘attha’, seem to not be supporting your interpretation.

It is actually quite an easy semantic shift. Self > ourselves > we ourselves > we. Other examples of drastic semantic shifts would include travail from French - what does it have to do with a torture instrument? Khmer khñom I originally meant ‘slave’, and the English word ‘slave’ originally meant ‘Slav’.

I shall remove all expressions of faith and stay strictly within the confines of etymology. There will be no nationalism or cult-like behavior involved here.

Observe the construction of the following sentence.

``> I was right not to turn right

The word “right” pops up twice. In the latter instance, right suggests the direction taken. The right in the first validates the decision. So the same word > two different meaning.

Now, take the Dhammapada verse 160 (read → here)

Attä hi attano nathö kö hi näthö parö siyä attanä hi sudanténa näthan labhati dullabhan

Translation.

One (atta) indeed is one’s own (attano) refuge (nathö) how can another be a refuge (nathö) to one? one (attanä) reaches salvation by purifying the mind getting to one's refuge (nathö) is rare
The word “atta/nathö” pops up twice. The first “atta” suggests “person” or vaguely even “self”. The second form of atha is as follows.

atho (refuge) -> natho (is one's refuge)

Notice how when prefixed with ‘n’ it treats the word in relation to the subject. This is another example.

icca (desire) -> nicca (what one desires)

The words atta/atho are the same but spelled differently. The words atta/nathö centers on the same word but with slightly different treatment.

So the word takes different meaning depending on the context. As an exercise, you may substitute “self” in the latter context of this Dhammapadda and notice how ridiculous it sounds.

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Sorry, I am working on the response to you.

The Dhamma presents a view and it is never perfect. I doubt even when the blessed Buddha was alive the oral transmission was perfect.

The way it works is Ariyas intervene and re-adjusts the prevailing oral or written view. Only an Ariya disciple can do that as he has seen things first hand.

As nobles ones have dwindled over time the re-adjustment has taken long intervening periods. The noble ones are essential to preserve the Right view.

This suggests that the respective Pali words popped up out of nowhere and have no pre-Pali etymology, as if there were no earlier languages than Pali. I know you personally do not think that using Sanskrit for interpreting Pali is a good idea, but I will still proceed to make my argument for the sake of other people.

Iccā (that is actually spelt as icchā throughout the Pali Canon in the Sinhala script and every other script the Suttapitaka is written with; fr. verb icchati) has a direct correspondence both in Sanskrit and the Vedic languages sounding as icchati. Other well-known cognates in other Indo-European languages include the English ask and Russian iskat’ ‘seek, search, look for’.

Nicca is actually not a noun in Pali but rather an adjective (also notice the change of the final vowel; apparently the ancient reciters were as incompetent as it gets despite Buddhaghosa’s insistence on the correct pronunciation for all sanghakammas to be valid) and also has a direct correspondence in the Sanskrit and Vedic adjective nitya “constant, permanent, eternal” Further etymological analysis shows that nitya is formed with ni- ‘downwards, in, into’ and the adjectival suffix -tya (cf. Sanskrit pratītyasamutpāda), suggesting perpetual persistent motion. The ni- part has cognates in numerous Indo-European languages, sometimes even parallel in their structure to the Sanskrit word: English in, Latin in ‘in’, Lithuanian į́ščios ‘intestines’, Russian vnutrenniy ‘inner’ (cf. to Old Slavic vъ(n) ‘in, into’, whence Russian v/vo ‘in, into’)

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It seems the bug comes from use of single ‘straight quote’ mark after the link. No idea why!

Just one of those ‘I should look at it one of these days. Maybe.’ :slight_smile:

Fortunately, the Discourse team is replacing the whole Markdown engine in the next version, so we’re off the hook!

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[quote=“Lal, post:91, topic:4986”]
2.The change in interpretation of anicca and anatta happened well after Buddhaghosa, who only changed real Anapanasati bhavana to breath meditation and also introduced Hindu kasina meditation as Buddhist.
[/quote]If this is the case, then why did all Buddhist monks (and, more importantly, translator-monks) before Buddhaghoṣa systematically and wholly choose to render anattā as always “without self” (they chose anatva in Gandhari and wu wo in Chinese, the Chinese example dating from at least 400AD, arguably 200AD, the Gandhari from much earlier) in their communications and dispensations to foreign monks and never as “futile” or any other rendition of “anartha”?

If such a Great Apostasy occurred in Early Buddhism, it necessarily must predate all written record of the Dhamma, meaning that it must have occurred between approx 483 & 29 BC. If you want to support this claim you are making, you will need to find evidence from that specific time period, as that is the only time this shift from “anartha” to “anattā” could have occurred.

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Your quote: “… Asārakaṭṭhena anattā … (Chapter XI) - anattā in the sense of not having substance/core/essence…”

Then you said, “ These quotations, disregarding how you spell the word ‘attha’, seem to not be supporting your interpretation.”

That is not correct. Buddhaghosa’s description of Anatta as above is consistent with what I said in my comments above. “Saara” means fruitful and Asara means “not fruitful”: So, Asārakaṭṭhena anattā means “Anatta in the sense of not fruitful” . He did not interpret anatta as “no-self” or “no-soul”. That happened when those early Europeans such as Rhys Davids who confused anatta with Vedic term anathma.

I do not know about literature in other languages. But what I am saying is that anicca and anatta have been interpreted IN ENGLISH as impermanence and no-self from the time Tipitaka was translated to English in the late 1800’s.

Buddhaghosa converted Sinhala commentaries to Pali and kept the words anicca and anatta (see the Pali version of the Visuddhimagga available at Amazon).

But in English translations of the Tipitaka or the Visuddhimagga, they are always translated as impermanence and no-self. So, this problem started with the early Europeans like Rhys Davids and Bernouf, who apparently thought Pali anicca and anatta are the same as Sanskrit anitya (which does mean impermanence) and anathma (which does mean no-self).

The Pali Tipitaka was written with Sinhala script 2000 years ago, and has remained correct. So, this problem started when it was translated to English in the late 1800’s. Pali Tipitaka has correct wording even today.

The problem is there only in English translations and then subsequent translations of those English documents to other languages. Of course, even Sinhala (Thai and other Asian) scholars learned Buddhism in universities in UK and started writing books in their languages with incorrect interpretations.
For example, Malalasekara was a student of Rhys Davids and Kalupahana and Jayatilake both got their doctoral degree in Buddhism from universities in the UK.

Please read my above 3-4 posts again. I am re-writing most of it here, because this is an important point. But I am not going to rehash this again and again. More information is at my website and I have given links in the previous comments.

With metta, Lal

[quote=“Lal, post:102, topic:4986”]
I do not know about literature in other languages. But what I am saying is that anicca and anatta have been interpreted IN ENGLISH as impermanence and no-self from the time Tipitaka was translated to English in the late 1800’s.

[…omitted what I believed to be unsubstantiated information (or at least uncited) about Buddhaghoṣa allegedly rendering anattā as “anartha”…]

But in English translations of the Tipitaka or the Visuddhimagga, they are always translated as impermanence and no-self. So, this problem started with the early Europeans like Rhys Davids and Bernouf, who apparently thought Pali anicca and anatta are the same as Sanskrit anitya (which does mean impermanence) and anathma (which does mean no-self).[/quote]But this phenomena would have started much much before these English translators, as I pointed out above, and as evidenced by translations dating from much before substantial modern European contact with the East. You cannot claim what you are claiming without also claiming a “Great Apostasy” that occurred before any and all textual transmission of Buddhism. Proving, via evidence, the existence of this “Great Apostasy” lies at the crux of you arguing that “anattā” is “anartha”.


Similarly, you have not proved that the modern Pāli Canon contains “anattā” rendered as a compound in any way derived from “anartha”, you have said that multiple times but have not proved it or offered any evidence. You would need to provide manuscript evidence containing confusion as to the rendering of anattā, as it is still rendered as anattā in the modern Pāli Canon, the Sinhala script does little to change this.

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